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Re: A Mascot

Bas van Dijk-2
On 16 November 2011 05:18, John Meacham <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Not nearly enough
> attention is paid to the other striking feature, the laziness. The
> 'bottom' symbol _|_ should feature prominently. The two most defining
> features of haskell are that it is purely functional and _|_ inhabits
> every type. The combination of which is very powerful.

Is ⊥ the right symbol to express the non-strict evaluation of the
language? Is it true that non-strict evaluation requires that ⊥
inhabits every type? In other words: why can't there exist a
non-strict total language (probably having some form of coinductive
types)?

Cheers,

Bas

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Re: A Mascot

MigMit
Maybe it's just me, but I've thought that being non-strict just means that it's possible for a function to produce some value even if it's argument doesn't; in other words, that it's possible to have "f (_|_) ≠ (_|_)". If there was no such thing as (_|_), what would non-strictness mean?

On 16 Nov 2011, at 13:46, Bas van Dijk wrote:

> On 16 November 2011 05:18, John Meacham <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> Not nearly enough
>> attention is paid to the other striking feature, the laziness. The
>> 'bottom' symbol _|_ should feature prominently. The two most defining
>> features of haskell are that it is purely functional and _|_ inhabits
>> every type. The combination of which is very powerful.
>
> Is ⊥ the right symbol to express the non-strict evaluation of the
> language? Is it true that non-strict evaluation requires that ⊥
> inhabits every type? In other words: why can't there exist a
> non-strict total language (probably having some form of coinductive
> types)?
>
> Cheers,
>
> Bas
>
> _______________________________________________
> Haskell-Cafe mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe


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Re: A Mascot

Tillmann Vogt-2
In reply to this post by Andrew Butterfield
Am 16.11.2011 10:07, schrieb Andrew Butterfield:

> On 16 Nov 2011, at 08:46, Ertugrul Soeylemez wrote:
>
>> But I think, despite the well-founded denotational semantics of Haskell,
>> bottom does not play that much of a role.
> There is one? Where? Last time I looked (a while ago, admittedly)
> there was no denotational (or any formal) semantics for Haskell.
>   - lots of stuff for fragments of Haskell-like languages or parts of Haskell, but not a
> full proper definitive semantics for *Haskell*, as found in the wild...
>
> Looking at
>   http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Haskell/Denotational_semantics
> the first footnote states
>    "In fact, there are no written down and complete denotational semantics of Haskell. This would be a tedious task void of additional insight and we happily embrace the folklore and common sense semantics."
>
> However, if you have a proof-based tool used for reasoning about Haskell programs
> in a safety-critical environment, you might just need to do this tedious task,
> particularly in order to show your proof rules sound.
>   - has anyone in that area done this? is it available ?
>
> Is there a definitive Operational Semantics? Axiomatic?

http://verify.rwth-aachen.de/fp09
The lecture is about reducing (simple) Haskell to the lambda calculus
(denotational semantics) and then showing the operational semantics of
the untyped lambda calculus.
It is amazing that a practical language can be reduced to the lambda
calculus so easily. It made me into a Haskell programmer.
They also use this practically in a Java tool to prove termination of
Haskell programs.
It is mentioned in the last hcar under "Automated Termination Analyzer
for Haskell".


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Re: A Mascot

Vincent Hanquez
In reply to this post by heathmatlock
On 11/16/2011 01:01 AM, heathmatlock wrote:
> I liked Go's mascot, and I figure it couldn't hurt to have our own. I spent
> the past hour making this:
> http://i.imgur.com/Mib6Q.png
awesome. It's really nice,

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Re: A Mascot

Bas van Dijk-2
In reply to this post by MigMit
On 16 November 2011 11:05, MigMit <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Maybe it's just me, but I've thought that being non-strict just means that it's possible for a function to produce some value even if it's argument doesn't; in other words, that it's possible to have "f (_|_) ≠ (_|_)". If there was no such thing as (_|_), what would non-strictness mean?

Thanks, non-strictness is indeed defined using ⊥ like you mentioned.

I think I was confusing non-strict evaluation with coinduction. They
have the same advantages but the latter is less powerful but safer
than the former.

Bas

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Re: A Mascot

Jesse Schalken
I like the idea of a mascot. I like the idea of a lamb called Da, as most of Haskell's strength comes from it's closeness to pure lambda calculus.

A few things I'd like to see in a mascot:
- Simple. You should be able to draw it in a few seconds.
- Look good in black and white.
- Have obvious features so it is identifiable from a distance.
- Be a little bit cute.

I don't see why ⊥ has to be featured. ⊥ means a computation can terminate without returning a value. That is a flaw, not a strength. If a computation may fail, return a Maybe or Either String. If a computation might not terminate, let it not terminate and I can find out why with my debugger. That covers all the use cases of ⊥. It also undermines the type system as beginners often write functions which return ⊥ where they should either be returning a Maybe or Either String, or expressing the violated precondition in the type system so it can be tested at compile time. What am I missing?

On Wed, Nov 16, 2011 at 9:47 PM, Bas van Dijk <[hidden email]> wrote:
On 16 November 2011 11:05, MigMit <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Maybe it's just me, but I've thought that being non-strict just means that it's possible for a function to produce some value even if it's argument doesn't; in other words, that it's possible to have "f (_|_) ≠ (_|_)". If there was no such thing as (_|_), what would non-strictness mean?

Thanks, non-strictness is indeed defined using ⊥ like you mentioned.

I think I was confusing non-strict evaluation with coinduction. They
have the same advantages but the latter is less powerful but safer
than the former.

Bas

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Re: A Mascot

Jerzy Karczmarczuk
In reply to this post by Bas van Dijk-2
Do you mind some ... how to say ... offside comments?

1. The Curry Da mascot looks like a penguin disguised as a  lamb. I have
nothing against penguins !

2. Da, da, konech'no, mais, Signori und Demoiselles, do you realize that
"lamb" is an English word, and we should think about our multilingual
society. with our agneaux and other Karakuls. You will have problems
with the translation of the mascot into German, and some may find some
analogies with another image:
http://www.chrisrusak.com/images/11-013_small.jpg
called  "Ein liebliches Lämmlein zu Tod" (after Des Knaben Wunderhorn,
in the last part of Mahler 4th Symphony).

3. On the other hand, from the cultural point of view, this is a very
good idea, and quite international, everybody knows Lamb Curry (Rogan Josh):
http://www.route79.com/food/rogan-josh.htm

4. It is incredible, how this mascot inspired a long, long discussion
about the Bottom. Now, Bottom is important ! Most French politicians
speak only about that (well, at least one of them doesn't speak, but
prefers practical exercises...), but I confess that I am a little lost.
Anyway, I learned something.
For example, that what is strictly forbidden, is lazily allowed.

Best regards

Jerzy Karczmarczuk
Caen, France.
(25 km from the Oldest Comic Strip in the World, 1000 years and progressing)


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Re: A Mascot

MigMit
In reply to this post by Jesse Schalken
You're probably missing the fact that it's much harder to understand how the Haskell program works without (_|_). I've seen lots of questions like "why doesn't my recursion work" that could be answered simply as "because your function is strict, so (_|_) is it's minimal fixpoint".

Отправлено с iPhone

Nov 16, 2011, в 15:31, Jesse Schalken <[hidden email]> написал(а):

I like the idea of a mascot. I like the idea of a lamb called Da, as most of Haskell's strength comes from it's closeness to pure lambda calculus.

A few things I'd like to see in a mascot:
- Simple. You should be able to draw it in a few seconds.
- Look good in black and white.
- Have obvious features so it is identifiable from a distance.
- Be a little bit cute.

I don't see why ⊥ has to be featured. ⊥ means a computation can terminate without returning a value. That is a flaw, not a strength. If a computation may fail, return a Maybe or Either String. If a computation might not terminate, let it not terminate and I can find out why with my debugger. That covers all the use cases of ⊥. It also undermines the type system as beginners often write functions which return ⊥ where they should either be returning a Maybe or Either String, or expressing the violated precondition in the type system so it can be tested at compile time. What am I missing?

On Wed, Nov 16, 2011 at 9:47 PM, Bas van Dijk <[hidden email]> wrote:
On 16 November 2011 11:05, MigMit <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Maybe it's just me, but I've thought that being non-strict just means that it's possible for a function to produce some value even if it's argument doesn't; in other words, that it's possible to have "f (_|_) ≠ (_|_)". If there was no such thing as (_|_), what would non-strictness mean?

Thanks, non-strictness is indeed defined using ⊥ like you mentioned.

I think I was confusing non-strict evaluation with coinduction. They
have the same advantages but the latter is less powerful but safer
than the former.

Bas

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Re: A Mascot

Daniel Peebles
In reply to this post by heathmatlock
I like it!

On Wed, Nov 16, 2011 at 1:01 AM, heathmatlock <[hidden email]> wrote:
I liked Go's mascot, and I figure it couldn't hurt to have our own. I spent the past hour making this:
http://i.imgur.com/Mib6Q.png

What do you think?

--
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Re: A Mascot

heathmatlock
In reply to this post by Jerzy Karczmarczuk


On Wed, Nov 16, 2011 at 5:54 AM, Jerzy Karczmarczuk <[hidden email]> wrote:
Do you mind some ... how to say ... offside comments?

1. The Curry Da mascot looks like a penguin disguised as a  lamb. I have nothing against penguins !

Hi Jerry, thanks for your input. The reason to have the the lamb standing up is just so he can be dressed, and it does have similarities to a penguin with its round belly, I suppose.

2. Da, da, konech'no, mais, Signori und Demoiselles, do you realize that "lamb" is an English word, and we should think about our multilingual society. with our agneaux and other Karakuls. You will have problems with the translation of the mascot into German, and some may find some analogies with another image:
http://www.chrisrusak.com/images/11-013_small.jpg
called  "Ein liebliches Lämmlein zu Tod" (after Des Knaben Wunderhorn, in the last part of Mahler 4th Symphony).

3. On the other hand, from the cultural point of view, this is a very good idea, and quite international, everybody knows Lamb Curry (Rogan Josh):
http://www.route79.com/food/rogan-josh.htm


Some might picture a symphony or what looks like newspaper origami when they hear Da, and some might picture food when they hear Curry. I like Da because its simple and "Da the lamb" rolls smoothly off the tongue. Probably best to open a poll to and let everyone decide.


--
Heath Matlock
+1 256 274 4225

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Re: A Mascot

Giovanni Tirloni
On Wed, Nov 16, 2011 at 7:06 PM, heathmatlock <[hidden email]> wrote:

Some might picture a symphony or what looks like newspaper origami when they hear Da, and some might picture food when they hear Curry. I like Da because its simple and "Da the lamb" rolls smoothly off the tongue. Probably best to open a poll to and let everyone decide.


Not trying to complicate things any further but perhaps it'd be better to have a contest on this, just like for the new logo.

--
Giovanni



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Re: A Mascot

heathmatlock
On Wed, Nov 16, 2011 at 3:15 PM, Giovanni Tirloni <[hidden email]> wrote:
On Wed, Nov 16, 2011 at 7:06 PM, heathmatlock <[hidden email]> wrote:

Some might picture a symphony or what looks like newspaper origami when they hear Da, and some might picture food when they hear Curry. I like Da because its simple and "Da the lamb" rolls smoothly off the tongue. Probably best to open a poll to and let everyone decide.


Not trying to complicate things any further but perhaps it'd be better to have a contest on this, just like for the new logo.

--
Giovanni


 
You're probably right, I guess someone can create a new poll like the previous one:

http://www.cs.cornell.edu/w8/~andru/cgi-perl/civs/results.pl?num_winners=1&id=E_d21b0256a4fd5ed7&algorithm=beatpath

I took Jerzy's suggestions into consideration and made the lamb skinnier, maybe it looks less like a penguin now.

http://imgur.com/4oeJz

Thanks for the conversation so far, I'm glad there's interest in a mascot.



--
Heath Matlock
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Re: A Mascot

heathmatlock
On Wed, Nov 16, 2011 at 4:49 PM, heathmatlock <[hidden email]> wrote:
 
You're probably right, I guess someone can create a new poll like the previous one:

http://www.cs.cornell.edu/w8/~andru/cgi-perl/civs/results.pl?num_winners=1&id=E_d21b0256a4fd5ed7&algorithm=beatpath


I would create the poll for a mascot, but I think this is up to someone else.

--
Heath Matlock
+1 256 274 4225

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Re: A Mascot

Hans Aberg-2
In reply to this post by heathmatlock
On 16 Nov 2011, at 23:49, heathmatlock wrote:

> I took Jerzy's suggestions into consideration and made the lamb skinnier, maybe it looks less like a penguin now.
>
> http://imgur.com/4oeJz

A formula that is Haskell specific is
  \x -> ⊥ ≠ ⊥
It is mentioned in the Haskell 98 Report, sec. 6.2, "Strict Evaluation", p. 82. The LHS and RHS are different, because they can be distinguished by seq.

Hans



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Re: A Mascot

amindfv
In reply to this post by heathmatlock

I'm used to (on the east coast US) hearing lambda pronounced "LAM-duh." "Duh" is an expression of something being stupid, so I don't know about Haskell having a mascot called "Duh the Lamb"!

amindfv / Tom

On Nov 16, 2011 4:06 PM, "heathmatlock" <[hidden email]> wrote:


On Wed, Nov 16, 2011 at 5:54 AM, Jerzy Karczmarczuk <[hidden email]> wrote:
Do you mind some ... how to say ... offside comments?

1. The Curry Da mascot looks like a penguin disguised as a  lamb. I have nothing against penguins !

Hi Jerry, thanks for your input. The reason to have the the lamb standing up is just so he can be dressed, and it does have similarities to a penguin with its round belly, I suppose.

2. Da, da, konech'no, mais, Signori und Demoiselles, do you realize that "lamb" is an English word, and we should think about our multilingual society. with our agneaux and other Karakuls. You will have problems with the translation of the mascot into German, and some may find some analogies with another image:
http://www.chrisrusak.com/images/11-013_small.jpg
called  "Ein liebliches Lämmlein zu Tod" (after Des Knaben Wunderhorn, in the last part of Mahler 4th Symphony).

3. On the other hand, from the cultural point of view, this is a very good idea, and quite international, everybody knows Lamb Curry (Rogan Josh):
http://www.route79.com/food/rogan-josh.htm


Some might picture a symphony or what looks like newspaper origami when they hear Da, and some might picture food when they hear Curry. I like Da because its simple and "Da the lamb" rolls smoothly off the tongue. Probably best to open a poll to and let everyone decide.


--
Heath Matlock
<a href="tel:%2B1%20256%20274%204225" value="+12562744225" target="_blank">+1 256 274 4225

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Re: A Mascot

Jason Dagit-3
In reply to this post by heathmatlock
You're quite the artist.  I wish I could make stuff like this.

Here are some more ideas (based on titles of papers about Haskell):
What about making the lamb wear a hair shirt?

Or maybe it could be lazy with class?

Jason

On Wed, Nov 16, 2011 at 2:49 PM, heathmatlock <[hidden email]> wrote:
On Wed, Nov 16, 2011 at 3:15 PM, Giovanni Tirloni <[hidden email]> wrote:
On Wed, Nov 16, 2011 at 7:06 PM, heathmatlock <[hidden email]> wrote:

Some might picture a symphony or what looks like newspaper origami when they hear Da, and some might picture food when they hear Curry. I like Da because its simple and "Da the lamb" rolls smoothly off the tongue. Probably best to open a poll to and let everyone decide.


Not trying to complicate things any further but perhaps it'd be better to have a contest on this, just like for the new logo.

--
Giovanni


 
You're probably right, I guess someone can create a new poll like the previous one:

http://www.cs.cornell.edu/w8/~andru/cgi-perl/civs/results.pl?num_winners=1&id=E_d21b0256a4fd5ed7&algorithm=beatpath

I took Jerzy's suggestions into consideration and made the lamb skinnier, maybe it looks less like a penguin now.

http://imgur.com/4oeJz

Thanks for the conversation so far, I'm glad there's interest in a mascot.



--
Heath Matlock
<a href="tel:%2B1%20256%20274%204225" value="+12562744225" target="_blank">+1 256 274 4225

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Re: A Mascot

aditya siram-2
In reply to this post by amindfv
Wonder what they'd make of "bottom" :)

Maybe we can also incorporate some tongue-in-cheek tip-of-the-hat to Shakespeare : http://www.shakespearesantacruz.org/about/images/dream_34_thaler_web.jpg

-deech

On Wed, Nov 16, 2011 at 6:50 PM, Tom Murphy <[hidden email]> wrote:

I'm used to (on the east coast US) hearing lambda pronounced "LAM-duh." "Duh" is an expression of something being stupid, so I don't know about Haskell having a mascot called "Duh the Lamb"!

amindfv / Tom

On Nov 16, 2011 4:06 PM, "heathmatlock" <[hidden email]> wrote:


On Wed, Nov 16, 2011 at 5:54 AM, Jerzy Karczmarczuk <[hidden email]> wrote:
Do you mind some ... how to say ... offside comments?

1. The Curry Da mascot looks like a penguin disguised as a  lamb. I have nothing against penguins !

Hi Jerry, thanks for your input. The reason to have the the lamb standing up is just so he can be dressed, and it does have similarities to a penguin with its round belly, I suppose.

2. Da, da, konech'no, mais, Signori und Demoiselles, do you realize that "lamb" is an English word, and we should think about our multilingual society. with our agneaux and other Karakuls. You will have problems with the translation of the mascot into German, and some may find some analogies with another image:
http://www.chrisrusak.com/images/11-013_small.jpg
called  "Ein liebliches Lämmlein zu Tod" (after Des Knaben Wunderhorn, in the last part of Mahler 4th Symphony).

3. On the other hand, from the cultural point of view, this is a very good idea, and quite international, everybody knows Lamb Curry (Rogan Josh):
http://www.route79.com/food/rogan-josh.htm


Some might picture a symphony or what looks like newspaper origami when they hear Da, and some might picture food when they hear Curry. I like Da because its simple and "Da the lamb" rolls smoothly off the tongue. Probably best to open a poll to and let everyone decide.


--
Heath Matlock
<a href="tel:%2B1%20256%20274%204225" value="+12562744225" target="_blank">+1 256 274 4225

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Re: A Mascot

Alexander Bernauer
In reply to this post by John Meacham
On Tue, Nov 15, 2011 at 08:18:04PM -0800, John Meacham wrote:
> People tend to concentrate on the lambda which cooresponds to the
> functional aspect of haskell when designing logos. Not nearly enough
> attention is paid to the other striking feature, the laziness.

If we want to emphasize the lazyness, why not a sloth instead of a lamb?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sloth <- is this cute or what ;-)

jm2c.

Unfortunatelly my drawing skills suck I am unable to come up with a
concrete logo. But maybe somebody else is gifted to do so.

Greetings

Alex

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Re: A Mascot

Brent Yorgey-2
On Thu, Nov 17, 2011 at 10:28:47AM +0100, Alexander Bernauer wrote:
> On Tue, Nov 15, 2011 at 08:18:04PM -0800, John Meacham wrote:
> > People tend to concentrate on the lambda which cooresponds to the
> > functional aspect of haskell when designing logos. Not nearly enough
> > attention is paid to the other striking feature, the laziness.
>
> If we want to emphasize the lazyness, why not a sloth instead of a lamb?
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sloth <- is this cute or what ;-)

Sloths are not lazy, they are just slow.  I doubt that's the
impression we want to give of Haskell. =)

-Brent

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Re: A Mascot

Andrew Coppin
In reply to this post by heathmatlock
On 16/11/2011 04:50 AM, heathmatlock wrote:

>
>
> On Tue, Nov 15, 2011 at 10:18 PM, John Meacham <[hidden email]
> <mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote:
>
>     People tend to concentrate on the lambda which cooresponds to the
>     functional aspect of haskell when designing logos. Not nearly enough
>     attention is paid to the other striking feature, the laziness. The
>     'bottom' symbol _|_ should feature prominently. The two most defining
>     features of haskell are that it is purely functional and _|_ inhabits
>     every type. The combination of which is very powerful.
>
>         John
>
>
> I would have to think about this a bit longer, but here's the symbol
> reworked onto the helmet:
>
> http://i.imgur.com/ZziGQ.png

If you're going to draw a piece of graphics, why use ASCII workarounds
like "_|_", when you can use the real thing (i.e., "⊥")?

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