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this looks quite pretty, though I must admit that im not the most savvy at quantified constraints yet wouldn't this newtype also benefit from a semigroup and monoid instance too? (or am I overlooking some reason why you can't do them too?) On Fri, Feb 15, 2019 at 7:05 PM theindigamer <[hidden email]> wrote:
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I'm not sure which implementation you have in mind - the newtype one? I suppose that it would be harmless to add it in, although I don't immediately see the use case. On Fri, Feb 15, 2019 at 7:11 PM Carter Schonwald <[hidden email]> wrote:
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It'll have to use the underlying Functor and Applicative to get an Alternative.
Could you give some examples where you'd like to use this? I don't like the name but don't have a better one off the top of my head. AltMonoid or something? On Sat, 16 Feb 2019 at 10:20, theindigamer <[hidden email]> wrote: > > I'm not sure which implementation you have in mind - the newtype one? > I suppose that it would be harmless to add it in, although I don't immediately > see the use case. > > > On Fri, Feb 15, 2019 at 7:11 PM Carter Schonwald <[hidden email]> wrote: >> >> this looks quite pretty, though I must admit that im not the most savvy at quantified constraints yet >> >> wouldn't this newtype also benefit from a semigroup and monoid instance too? (or am I overlooking some reason why you can't do them too?) >> >> On Fri, Feb 15, 2019 at 7:05 PM theindigamer <[hidden email]> wrote: >>> >>> Thoughts on adding a newtype with the following Alternative instance? >>> >>> (The name chosen is a placeholder, I don't have any particular preference). >>> >>> newtype Mon f a = Mon { unMon :: f a } >>> >>> instance (forall a. Monoid (f a)) => Alternative (Mon f) where >>> empty = Mon mempty >>> (<|>) (Mon m1) (Mon m2) = Mon (m1 <> m2) >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Libraries mailing list >>> [hidden email] >>> http://mail.haskell.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/libraries > > _______________________________________________ > Libraries mailing list > [hidden email] > http://mail.haskell.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/libraries Libraries mailing list [hidden email] http://mail.haskell.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/libraries |
In reply to this post by theindigamer
Am Freitag, den 15.02.2019, 19:04 -0500 schrieb theindigamer:
> Thoughts on adding a newtype with the following Alternative instance? > (The name chosen is a placeholder, I don't have any particular > preference). > > newtype Mon f a = Mon { unMon :: f a } > > instance (forall a. Monoid (f a)) => Alternative (Mon f) where > > empty = Mon mempty > > (<|>) (Mon m1) (Mon m2) = Mon (m1 <> m2) If I remember correctly, then something that is an `Applicative` and a `Monoid` isn’t necessarily an `Alternative` and something that is a `Monad` and a `Monoid` isn’t necessarily a `MonadPlus`. There are certain axioms that are supposed to hold, which link the `Applicative` or `Monad` structure to the `Monoid` structure. At least this is how it ought to be. For details see the paper [“From Monoids to Near-Semirings: The Essence of `MonadPlus` and `Alternative`”][*]. All the best, Wolfgang [*]: https://usuarios.fceia.unr.edu.ar/~mauro/pubs/FromMonoidstoNearsemirings.pdf "From Monoids to Near-Semirings: The Essence of `MonadPlus` and `Alternative`" _______________________________________________ Libraries mailing list [hidden email] http://mail.haskell.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/libraries |
On 2/18/19 3:19 PM, Wolfgang Jeltsch wrote:
> If I remember correctly, then something that is an `Applicative` and a > `Monoid` isnt necessarily an `Alternative` and something that is a > `Monad` and a `Monoid` isnt necessarily a `MonadPlus`. There are > certain axioms that are supposed to hold, which link the `Applicative` > or `Monad` structure to the `Monoid` structure. At least this is how it > ought to be. For details see the paper [From Monoids to Near-Semirings: > The Essence of `MonadPlus` and `Alternative`][*]. > > [*]: > � � https://usuarios.fceia.unr.edu.ar/~mauro/pubs/FromMonoidstoNearsemirings.pdf > "From Monoids to Near-Semirings: The Essence of `MonadPlus` and `Alternative`" > > The laws studied by that paper are not universal to Alternative instances that occur in practice, and in fact I don't think it is possible to require anything more than a monoid structure from them. Having only skimmed the paper, the only extra law not guaranteed by the proposed newtype seems to be the distributivity of join/(>>=) over (<|>) (equations 10 and 12 on page 6): join (m1 <|> m2) = join m1 <|> join m2 or (m1 <|> m2) >>= k = (m1 >>= k) <|> (m2 >>= k) (I believe 9 and 11 must hold by parametricity (under reasonable conditions), hence they can be ignored.) These equations are not satisfied by existing instances like Maybe and most parser monads (as noted in the paper), because it requires too much backtracking. The paper mentions another, incompatible law (13 on page 7), that has also been studied elsewhere, and that one could push for: pure a <|> b = pure a But the ship has already sailed: there are plenty of Alternative instances in use that violate either (or possibly both) of these laws. Beyond a monoid structure, I don't know any other law that can be uncontroversially expected from Alternative instances. If indeed no other universal requirement can be found, the proposed newtype is acceptable from the point of view of laws. It might be better to document those extra laws in a non-prescriptive fashion, to tell users of Alternative that "it might be enlightening to consider whether your functor satisfies those laws". Regards, Li-yao _______________________________________________ Libraries mailing list [hidden email] http://mail.haskell.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/libraries |
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