Confusions about the Haskell Platform (for Mac)

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Confusions about the Haskell Platform (for Mac)

Sean Leather
1. Why can't the platform download site be hosted on www.haskell.org instead of hackage.haskell.org? I see that there's a redirect, but (imho) it would be ideal to have www.haskell.org/platform be the standard URL in my browser. It is easier to remember (for typing) and more obvious (for appearances).

2. What is the difference between "Haskell" and the "Haskell Platform"? I see one or the other in various places. To get from www.haskell.org to downloading the Mac software, I go through "Download Haskell," "Get the Haskell Platform > Mac," and "Download Haskell for Mac OS X (intel)."

3. By looking at http://hackage.haskell.org/platform/mac.html , I have no idea what I'm going to get when I click the "Download Haskell for Mac OS X (intel)" link. It would be nice to know what I'm getting myself into before I commit to waiting for this 137.9 MB file. Thanks to the wonder of deep links, one can also not be expected to traverse the path that I did in #2. Similarly, if I come to this link directly, I have no easy way of navigating to try to figure out what "Haskell" or "GHC" is.

4. The current link for the Mac image points to http://hackage.haskell.org/platform/2010.1.0.0/haskell-platform-2010.1.0.1-i386.dmg . Note the inconsistency between the version in the directory and file names.

5. The directions on http://hackage.haskell.org/platform/mac.html say:

  After downloading:
    * Open the .dmg file
    * Follow the install instructions

  I see no "install instructions" in the .dmg file. I only see the following files:
    * GHC-6.12.1-i386.pkg
    * Haskell Platform 2010.1.0.1.pkg
    * Uninstall GHC

6. Since there are no "install instructions," I am not sure which .pkg to install first. Of course, fix #3 and you hopefully fix this one.

7. Why can't I have a single .pkg file? Why do I have an "Uninstall GHC" and not an "Uninstall Haskell Platform"?

--

I don't expect all of the above to necessarily have a direct solution. They are just my observations to share. Some of them are from the point of view of a newcomer, and some are from a perfectionist.

Regards,
Sean

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Re: Confusions about the Haskell Platform (for Mac)

Sean Leather

On Tue, Apr 6, 2010 at 13:47, Sean Leather wrote:
1.
[...]
7.

8. The binaries do not work on Leopard (10.5.8).

  $ /usr/local/bin/cabal
  dyld: unknown required load command 0x80000022
  Trace/BPT trap

This was previously reported at http://thread.gmane.org/gmane.comp.lang.haskell.cafe/71747/focus=71944 and Gregory Collins is apparently working on a fix. I'm happy to test a new version, but it would be nice to have an uninstaller (that cleans up the symlinks in /usr/local/bin too).

Regards,
Sean

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Re: Confusions about the Haskell Platform (for Mac)

Don Stewart-2
In reply to this post by Sean Leather
leather:
> 1. Why can't the platform download site be hosted on www.haskell.org instead of
> hackage.haskell.org? I see that there's a redirect, but (imho) it would be
> ideal to have www.haskell.org/platform be the standard URL in my browser. It is
> easier to remember (for typing) and more obvious (for appearances).

It's a different server that we have better physical access to (i.e. I
can check the logs).
 

> 2. What is the difference between "Haskell" and the "Haskell Platform"? I see
> one or the other in various places. To get from www.haskell.org to downloading
> the Mac software, I go through "Download Haskell," "Get the Haskell Platform >
> Mac," and "Download Haskell for Mac OS X (intel)."
>
> 3. By looking at http://hackage.haskell.org/platform/mac.html , I have no idea
> what I'm going to get when I click the "Download Haskell for Mac OS X (intel)"
> link. It would be nice to know what I'm getting myself into before I commit to
> waiting for this 137.9 MB file. Thanks to the wonder of deep links, one can
> also not be expected to traverse the path that I did in #2. Similarly, if I
> come to this link directly, I have no easy way of navigating to try to figure
> out what "Haskell" or "GHC" is.
>
> 4. The current link for the Mac image points to http://hackage.haskell.org/
> platform/2010.1.0.0/haskell-platform-2010.1.0.1-i386.dmg . Note the
> inconsistency between the version in the directory and file names.
>
> 5. The directions on http://hackage.haskell.org/platform/mac.html say:
>
>   After downloading:
>     * Open the .dmg file
>     * Follow the install instructions
>
>   I see no "install instructions" in the .dmg file. I only see the following
> files:
>     * GHC-6.12.1-i386.pkg
>     * Haskell Platform 2010.1.0.1.pkg
>     * Uninstall GHC
>
> 6. Since there are no "install instructions," I am not sure which .pkg to
> install first. Of course, fix #3 and you hopefully fix this one.
>
> 7. Why can't I have a single .pkg file? Why do I have an "Uninstall GHC" and
> not an "Uninstall Haskell Platform"?
>
> --
>
> I don't expect all of the above to necessarily have a direct solution. They are
> just my observations to share. Some of them are from the point of view of a
> newcomer, and some are from a perfectionist.
>

Thanks! I'm about to hop on a plane, but here's the darcs repo for the
download website, if you want to address some of the issues -- e.g.
return navigation links.

    http://code.haskell.org/haskell-platform

I'd love patches and improvements to address the concerns above.

-- Don
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Re: Confusions about the Haskell Platform (for Mac)

Gregory Collins-3
In reply to this post by Sean Leather
Sean Leather <[hidden email]> writes:

> 4. The current link for the Mac image points to
> http://hackage.haskell.org/platform/2010.1.0.0/haskell-platform-2010.1.0.1-i386.dmg
> . Note the inconsistency between the version in the directory and file
> names.

You can think of that one as the second edition of the 2010.1 beta
version. Agree that the directories should match. Too bad the installer
still doesn't work -- I'm working on it everyone, but the Mac installer
system is incredibly crufty and broken, and Snow Leopard broke a lot of
stuff for me.


> 5. The directions on http://hackage.haskell.org/platform/mac.html say:
>
>   After downloading:
>     * Open the .dmg file
>     * Follow the install instructions
>
>   I see no "install instructions" in the .dmg file. I only see the following files:
>     * GHC-6.12.1-i386.pkg
>     * Haskell Platform 2010.1.0.1.pkg
>     * Uninstall GHC

When you mount the .dmg file a Finder window should pop up with the
install instructions in a background image. Let me guess: this isn't
working in Leopard? I should put a readme in there.


> 7. Why can't I have a single .pkg file?

Short answer: I can't figure out how, and not for lack of trying,
either. What I do is take the binary installer that the GHC guys build
as a starting point. Despite many hours of reverse-engineering I cannot
for the life of me figure out how to extract the GHC installer package
from the binary "metapackage".

My experience has been that if you unxar the metapackage and try to copy
the included package file into a new metapackage, the mac installer
tools barf. Long-term, I'm planning on just building GHC from source so
I can package a one-click installer, but I don't have infinite time for
this project and doing psychic battle with the evil warlocks who cooked
up the Mac installer is a challenge.

If anyone has expertise in this area and a willingness to help, please
contact me off-list.


> Why do I have an "Uninstall GHC" and not an "Uninstall Haskell
> Platform"?

The platform installer is supposed to erase previous platform editions
before it installs itself.

G.
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Re: Confusions about the Haskell Platform (for Mac)

Sean Leather
Hi Gregory,

Thanks for the reply.

Gregory Collins wrote:
Sean Leather writes:

> 4. The current link for the Mac image points to
> http://hackage.haskell.org/platform/2010.1.0.0/haskell-platform-2010.1.0.1-i386.dmg
> . Note the inconsistency between the version in the directory and file
> names.

You can think of that one as the second edition of the 2010.1 beta
version. Agree that the directories should match.

This is, of course, relatively minor. One alternative is to change the directory name to exclude the lowest version(s), e.g 2010.1/haskell-platform-2010.1.0.1-i386.dmg, so that when new intermediate versions are uploaded, the directory name still makes sense and doesn't need to change.

Too bad the installer
still doesn't work -- I'm working on it everyone, but the Mac installer
system is incredibly crufty and broken, and Snow Leopard broke a lot of
stuff for me.

Is it possible to build the installer on a Leopard system/virtual machine such that it will install on a Snow Leopard system?

> 5. The directions on http://hackage.haskell.org/platform/mac.html say:
>
>   After downloading:
>     * Open the .dmg file
>     * Follow the install instructions
>
>   I see no "install instructions" in the .dmg file. I only see the following files:
>     * GHC-6.12.1-i386.pkg
>     * Haskell Platform 2010.1.0.1.pkg
>     * Uninstall GHC

When you mount the .dmg file a Finder window should pop up with the
install instructions in a background image. Let me guess: this isn't
working in Leopard? I should put a readme in there.

Yes, I'm using Leopard. A README file should do the trick.

> 7. Why can't I have a single .pkg file?

Short answer: I can't figure out how, and not for lack of trying,
either. What I do is take the binary installer that the GHC guys build
as a starting point. Despite many hours of reverse-engineering I cannot
for the life of me figure out how to extract the GHC installer package
from the binary "metapackage".

I'm completely ignorant of how the installer packages work, but is it possible to have one package refer to another? Thus, one installer could initiate another. Then, at least there is only one click needed for the whole thing.

My experience has been that if you unxar the metapackage and try to copy
the included package file into a new metapackage, the mac installer
tools barf. Long-term, I'm planning on just building GHC from source so
I can package a one-click installer, but I don't have infinite time for
this project and doing psychic battle with the evil warlocks who cooked
up the Mac installer is a challenge.

I see you have the source at http://github.com/gregorycollins/haskell-platform-osx-installer . I can try to look at it at some point.

If anyone has expertise in this area and a willingness to help, please
contact me off-list.


> Why do I have an "Uninstall GHC" and not an "Uninstall Haskell
> Platform"?

The platform installer is supposed to erase previous platform editions
before it installs itself.

That's good. Is it possible to include an uninstaller as well?

Regards,
Sean

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Re: Confusions about the Haskell Platform (for Mac)

Gregory Collins-3
Sean Leather <[hidden email]> writes:

>     Too bad the installer
>     still doesn't work -- I'm working on it everyone, but the Mac installer
>     system is incredibly crufty and broken, and Snow Leopard broke a lot of
>     stuff for me.
>
> Is it possible to build the installer on a Leopard system/virtual
> machine such that it will install on a Snow Leopard system?

I think that's the approach I'm going to have to take. I still have my
Leopard DVD sitting around, I'll try building the thing in a VirtualBox
or maybe even doing a separate Leopard edition of the platform
installer.

>     > 7. Why can't I have a single .pkg file?
>    
>     Short answer: I can't figure out how, and not for lack of trying,
>     either. What I do is take the binary installer that the GHC guys build
>     as a starting point. Despite many hours of reverse-engineering I cannot
>     for the life of me figure out how to extract the GHC installer package
>     from the binary "metapackage".
>
> I'm completely ignorant of how the installer packages work, but is it
> possible to have one package refer to another? Thus, one installer
> could initiate another. Then, at least there is only one click needed
> for the whole thing.

I don't have a good working solution for this, so the situation will
have to remain status quo (i.e. clicking two installers) for now.


>     The platform installer is supposed to erase previous platform
>     editions before it installs itself.
>
> That's good. Is it possible to include an uninstaller as well?

It would be pretty easy to bundle a shell script.

G
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Re: Confusions about the Haskell Platform (for Mac)

Malcolm Wallace
>>    The platform installer is supposed to erase previous platform
>>    editions before it installs itself.

I would consider that a serious bug.

The Haskell Platform is not like a standard user application, where it  
would be reasonable to have only one version installed at a time.  If  
you are a software developer, it is frequently essential to have  
several different versions of the development environment (compiler +  
libraries) installed simultaneously, so that you can adequately  
support users who have different versions of your own software.

Regards,
     Malcolm

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Re: Confusions about the Haskell Platform (for Mac)

Gregory Collins-3
Malcolm Wallace <[hidden email]> writes:

>>>    The platform installer is supposed to erase previous platform
>>>    editions before it installs itself.
>
> I would consider that a serious bug.

"Lacking a feature I would consider essential" /= "a bug" in my opinion,
especially when the desirability of the feature is in question. I have
enough legitimate bugs to deal with as it stands.


> The Haskell Platform is not like a standard user application, where it
> would be reasonable to have only one version installed at a time.  If
> you are a software developer, it is frequently essential to have
> several different versions of the development environment (compiler +
> libraries) installed simultaneously, so that you can adequately
> support users who have different versions of your own software.

We'll have to disagree here; I'd consider this a "power user" feature.
After all, the platform libs can be acquired by other means than the
turnkey binary installer. The OSX package system is so insane that I can
barely get the thing working to begin with, even after making a bunch of
simplifying assumptions (like "we don't need to support multiple
platform installations").

That said, I'm not at all opposed to having this feature, if you can
explain to me (or even better, provide code for) a reasonable scheme for
doing it that isn't going to make this project even more brittle than it
already is.

G
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Re: Confusions about the Haskell Platform (for Mac)

Ivan Lazar Miljenovic
In reply to this post by Malcolm Wallace
Malcolm Wallace <[hidden email]> writes:
> The Haskell Platform is not like a standard user application, where it
> would be reasonable to have only one version installed at a time.

As far as I know, most Linux distributions only let you install one
version of GHC at a time; we do this with Gentoo because despite there
being some distribution-specific architecture in place to be able to
switch between compilers (used for GCC, Ruby, Python, etc.) we haven't
resolved how to deal with dependency problems when a library was built
with one version of GHC and then you try to build something that depends
upon it with another version of GHC (since the package manager _knows_
that the dependency is installed, yet GHC is vehement that it knows
nothing about it).

--
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Re: Confusions about the Haskell Platform (for Mac)

Daniel Fischer-4
Am Mittwoch 07 April 2010 23:43:05 schrieb Ivan Lazar Miljenovic:
> Malcolm Wallace <[hidden email]> writes:
> > The Haskell Platform is not like a standard user application, where it
> > would be reasonable to have only one version installed at a time.
>
> As far as I know, most Linux distributions only let you install one
> version of GHC at a time;

I currently have 6.10.1, 6.10.3 and 6.12.1 installed (openSuSe 11.1), no
problem.
On my previous computer (SuSE 8.2), I had every release from 6.2.2 to
6.8.2, no problem either.

> we do this with Gentoo because despite there
> being some distribution-specific architecture in place to be able to
> switch between compilers (used for GCC, Ruby, Python, etc.) we haven't
> resolved how to deal with dependency problems when a library was built
> with one version of GHC and then you try to build something that depends
> upon it with another version of GHC (since the package manager _knows_
> that the dependency is installed, yet GHC is vehement that it knows
> nothing about it).

Ah, but one shouldn't use a package manager for Haskell packages.
Cabal is far superior to all of them 8-)
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Re: Confusions about the Haskell Platform (for Mac)

Malcolm Wallace
In reply to this post by Gregory Collins-3
>>>>   The platform installer is supposed to erase previous platform
>>>>   editions before it installs itself.
>>
>> I would consider that a serious bug.
>
> "Lacking a feature I would consider essential" /= "a bug" in my  
> opinion,
> especially when the desirability of the feature is in question.

It is not merely that a feature is lacking.  Removing software from my  
machine without my knowledge or permission is just wrong.  (I was  
bitten by this once before, with a ghc installer for Mac.  It removed  
the previous working ghc, without telling me.  Then I discovered that  
a library I needed could not be compiled by the new version of ghc.  
The old ghc installer then refused to delete the new ghc and revert to  
the old one, because it could not imagine why anyone would want to  
"downgrade".)

Regards,
     Malcolm

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Re: Confusions about the Haskell Platform (for Mac)

Ivan Lazar Miljenovic
In reply to this post by Daniel Fischer-4
Daniel Fischer <[hidden email]> writes:
> I currently have 6.10.1, 6.10.3 and 6.12.1 installed (openSuSe 11.1), no
> problem.
> On my previous computer (SuSE 8.2), I had every release from 6.2.2 to
> 6.8.2, no problem either.

Using system packages?

> Ah, but one shouldn't use a package manager for Haskell packages.
> Cabal is far superior to all of them 8-)

Except for the fact that you can't uninstall, check for
non-Haskell-library dependencies, etc. ...

--
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Re: Confusions about the Haskell Platform (for Mac)

Daniel Fischer-4
Am Donnerstag 08 April 2010 00:09:34 schrieb Ivan Lazar Miljenovic:
> Daniel Fischer <[hidden email]> writes:
> > I currently have 6.10.1, 6.10.3 and 6.12.1 installed (openSuSe 11.1),
> > no problem.
> > On my previous computer (SuSE 8.2), I had every release from 6.2.2 to
> > 6.8.2, no problem either.
>
> Using system packages?

Of course not, I'm a source freak (except the 6.10.1, one has to get
started somehow).

>
> > Ah, but one shouldn't use a package manager for Haskell packages.
> > Cabal is far superior to all of them 8-)
>
> Except for the fact that you can't uninstall,

Well, I can uninstall manually if I really want to, but disk space isn't
that scarce yet.

> check for non-Haskell-library dependencies,

True, a distro package manager could do that.
However, so far I've found the ease of managing Haskell packages via cabal-
install worth much more than taking care of the occasional non-Haskell
dependency.

> etc. ...

Such as?
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Re: Confusions about the Haskell Platform (for Mac)

Gregory Collins-3
In reply to this post by Malcolm Wallace
Malcolm Wallace <[hidden email]> writes:

>>>>>   The platform installer is supposed to erase previous platform
>>>>>   editions before it installs itself.
>>>
>>> I would consider that a serious bug.
>>
>> "Lacking a feature I would consider essential" /= "a bug" in my opinion,
>> especially when the desirability of the feature is in question.
>
> It is not merely that a feature is lacking.  Removing software from my
> machine without my knowledge or permission is just wrong.  (I was
> bitten by this once before, with a ghc installer for Mac.  It removed
> the previous working ghc, without telling me.  Then I discovered that
> a library I needed could not be compiled by the new version of ghc.
> The old ghc installer then refused to delete the new ghc and revert to
> the old one, because it could not imagine why anyone would want to
> "downgrade".)

I get where you're coming from, however: almost every binary installer
on every platform I've ever used performs a forcible package upgrade
unless the package maintainer takes special pains to do otherwise.

Like I said, I'm not opposed to doing something about this, if something
simple solves it without adding a significant complexity overhead. Is it
enough to do what GHC does? I.e. a
"/Library/Frameworks/HaskellPlatform.framework/Versions" directory with
appropriate symlinks, as well as a bundled, optional uninstaller script
which zaps everything?

G
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Re: Confusions about the Haskell Platform (for Mac)

Ivan Lazar Miljenovic
In reply to this post by Daniel Fischer-4
On 8 April 2010 08:25, Daniel Fischer <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Am Donnerstag 08 April 2010 00:09:34 schrieb Ivan Lazar Miljenovic:
>> etc. ...
>
> Such as?

To avoid stating these all over again:
http://ivanmiljenovic.wordpress.com/2010/03/15/repeat-after-me-cabal-is-not-a-package-manager/
(specifically the section titled "Why you should use your
distribution’s package management system").

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Re: Confusions about the Haskell Platform (for Mac)

Daniel Fischer-4
Am Donnerstag 08 April 2010 01:47:19 schrieb Ivan Miljenovic:

> On 8 April 2010 08:25, Daniel Fischer <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > Am Donnerstag 08 April 2010 00:09:34 schrieb Ivan Lazar Miljenovic:
> >> etc. ...
> >
> > Such as?
>
> To avoid stating these all over again:
> http://ivanmiljenovic.wordpress.com/2010/03/15/repeat-after-me-cabal-is-
>not-a-package-manager/ (specifically the section titled "Why you should
> use your
> distribution’s package management system").

Fair enough, Cabal/Hackage/cabal-install certainly isn't a package manager
(good that I never claimed it was :), I just use it to manage my Haskell
source packages; no, I won't stop doing that, I'm not going to switch
distros, I like SuSE, I didn't like Ubuntu or sidux, I might give Gentoo a
try when I buy my next computer, though).

However, I wanted to know what the etc stood for, with taking care of
dependencies and uninstalling already mentioned. Upgrading, yes, but what
else?
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Re: Confusions about the Haskell Platform (for Mac)

Ivan Lazar Miljenovic
On 8 April 2010 10:41, Daniel Fischer <[hidden email]> wrote:
> However, I wanted to know what the etc stood for, with taking care of
> dependencies and uninstalling already mentioned. Upgrading, yes, but what
> else?

Patching, bug fixing, stuff like that.

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Re: Confusions about the Haskell Platform (for Mac)

Jason Dagit-2
In reply to this post by Malcolm Wallace


On Wed, Apr 7, 2010 at 2:57 PM, Malcolm Wallace <[hidden email]> wrote:
 The platform installer is supposed to erase previous platform
 editions before it installs itself.

I would consider that a serious bug.

"Lacking a feature I would consider essential" /= "a bug" in my opinion,
especially when the desirability of the feature is in question.

It is not merely that a feature is lacking.  Removing software from my machine without my knowledge or permission is just wrong.  (I was bitten by this once before, with a ghc installer for Mac.  It removed the previous working ghc, without telling me.  Then I discovered that a library I needed could not be compiled by the new version of ghc. The old ghc installer then refused to delete the new ghc and revert to the old one, because it could not imagine why anyone would want to "downgrade".)

If I understand correctly, the issue at hand is that the uninstaller step is removing previous libraries and ghc?

If so, then I completely agree with Malcolm here.  Having the installer only allow one version of ghc means I'll keep using the tarball provided by GHC HQ instead of the nice shiny installer for the HP.  I need to be able to test things on multiple GHC versions for the foreseeable future.

I have a workaround, but I implore you to please kindly reconsider your stance here.

Jason

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Re: Confusions about the Haskell Platform (for Mac)

Ketil Malde-5
In reply to this post by Daniel Fischer-4
Daniel Fischer <[hidden email]> writes:

> However, I wanted to know what the etc stood for, with taking care of
> dependencies and uninstalling already mentioned. Upgrading, yes, but what
> else?

Keeping the system consistent with other systems?  If I use the system
packages, I can have a higher confidence that what works for me will
also work for users of the same distro.  And converse, so there'll be
more eyeballs per problem.

Reducing the load on system admins?  Although I might know the pros and
cons of upgrading to GHC 6.12.y from .x, my IT department are not likely
to.  And they have to support a dozen different languages for several
dozen users.  They are also more likely to trust things they get from
apt or yum repos, than tarballs off some random web site.

Centrally managed bug reporting system?  Not that Launchpad is awsomely
responsive, but at least there's *something*.

Support, in the sense that somebody is actually responsible for the
package?  (Unlike Hackage, where some packages have a
closed-for-nonsubscribers mailing list as 'maintainer'.)

(Probably 'etc.', but I can't think of more points at the moment.)

-k
--
If I haven't seen further, it is by standing in the footprints of giants
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Re: Confusions about the Haskell Platform (for Mac)

Ivan Lazar Miljenovic
On 8 April 2010 16:29, Ketil Malde <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Support, in the sense that somebody is actually responsible for the
> package?  (Unlike Hackage, where some packages have a
> closed-for-nonsubscribers mailing list as 'maintainer'.)

Which packages are these?  I don't recall seeing any with this kind of
"maintainer" address...

--
Ivan Lazar Miljenovic
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IvanMiljenovic.wordpress.com
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