Haskell Logo Voting has started!

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Haskell Logo Voting has started!

Eelco Lempsink-4
Hi there!

I updated a couple of logo versions and ungrouped and regrouped the  
(former) number 31.  Other than that, there was nothing standing in  
the way of the voting to begin imho, so I started up the competition.

By now, I suppose everybody should have received their ballot.  If you  
think you should have received it but didn't, please report it, I can  
resend the invitation.  Also, for people not directly subscribed to  
the haskell-cafe mailing list, you can still send ballot requests  
until the end of the competition (March 24, 12:00 UTC).  Make sure the  
message contains 'haskell logo voting ballot request' (e.g. in the  
subject).

Depending on the winner of this voting round we can decide whether we  
need to continue with variations.  Jared Updike already offered to  
donate a bit of time to help create several variations.  But for now,  
good luck with sorting those options! :)

--
Regards,

Eelco Lempsink


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Re: Haskell Logo Voting has started!

Heinrich Apfelmus
Eelco Lempsink wrote:

> Hi there!
>
> I updated a couple of logo versions and ungrouped and regrouped the
> (former) number 31.  Other than that, there was nothing standing in the
> way of the voting to begin imho, so I started up the competition.
>
> By now, I suppose everybody should have received their ballot.  If you
> think you should have received it but didn't, please report it, I can
> resend the invitation.  Also, for people not directly subscribed to the
> haskell-cafe mailing list, you can still send ballot requests until the
> end of the competition (March 24, 12:00 UTC).  Make sure the message
> contains 'haskell logo voting ballot request' (e.g. in the subject).
>
> Depending on the winner of this voting round we can decide whether we
> need to continue with variations.  Jared Updike already offered to
> donate a bit of time to help create several variations.  But for now,
> good luck with sorting those options! :)

Thanks for organizing this, finally I can choose ... Oh my god! How am I
supposed to make a vote?


I can barely remember 3 of the 113 logos, let alone memorize that #106
is the narwhal. There are lots of very good or just good candidates and
I would like to order them all to my liking, but without instant visual
feedback on the voting ballot, this is a hopeless task.

Since I have about 10 minutes to spare for voting, I'm just going to
pick 5 candidates at random and order these? Actually, I think I prefer
to be completely paralyzed by the overwhelming choice instead and not
vote at all.

Alternatively, it seems that it's possible to upload rankings from a
file. But which format? And is there a zip file with the logo proposals
so I can try to arrange them via drag&drop in some picture gallery
application?


A simple majority vote is clearly inadequate for this vote, but I'm
afraid that without assisting technology (instant and visual feedback),
the voting process will more or less deteriorate to that due to the
difficulty of creating quality input votes.


Regards,
apfelmus

--
http://apfelmus.nfshost.com

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Re: Re: Haskell Logo Voting has started!

greenrd
On Tue, 17 Mar 2009 15:24:28 +0100
Heinrich Apfelmus <[hidden email]> wrote:

> A simple majority vote is clearly inadequate for this vote, but I'm
> afraid that without assisting technology (instant and visual
> feedback), the voting process will more or less deteriorate to that
> due to the difficulty of creating quality input votes.

Even worse, the buttons for moving items up and down are buggy - at
least on my browser (Firefox 3.1 beta 2 on Linux). They sometimes
reorder my other votes! Even assuming that the list box code is not
buggy (which I now doubt), not being able to use the buttons makes this
form almost unusable!

--
Robin
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Re: Re: Haskell Logo Voting has started!

Thomas Davie
In reply to this post by Heinrich Apfelmus

On 17 Mar 2009, at 15:24, Heinrich Apfelmus wrote:

> Eelco Lempsink wrote:
>> Hi there!
>>
>> I updated a couple of logo versions and ungrouped and regrouped the
>> (former) number 31.  Other than that, there was nothing standing in  
>> the
>> way of the voting to begin imho, so I started up the competition.
>>
>> By now, I suppose everybody should have received their ballot.  If  
>> you
>> think you should have received it but didn't, please report it, I can
>> resend the invitation.  Also, for people not directly subscribed to  
>> the
>> haskell-cafe mailing list, you can still send ballot requests until  
>> the
>> end of the competition (March 24, 12:00 UTC).  Make sure the message
>> contains 'haskell logo voting ballot request' (e.g. in the subject).
>>
>> Depending on the winner of this voting round we can decide whether we
>> need to continue with variations.  Jared Updike already offered to
>> donate a bit of time to help create several variations.  But for now,
>> good luck with sorting those options! :)
>
> Thanks for organizing this, finally I can choose ... Oh my god! How  
> am I
> supposed to make a vote?
>
>
> I can barely remember 3 of the 113 logos, let alone memorize that #106
> is the narwhal. There are lots of very good or just good candidates  
> and
> I would like to order them all to my liking, but without instant  
> visual
> feedback on the voting ballot, this is a hopeless task.
>
> Since I have about 10 minutes to spare for voting, I'm just going to
> pick 5 candidates at random and order these? Actually, I think I  
> prefer
> to be completely paralyzed by the overwhelming choice instead and not
> vote at all.
>
> Alternatively, it seems that it's possible to upload rankings from a
> file. But which format? And is there a zip file with the logo  
> proposals
> so I can try to arrange them via drag&drop in some picture gallery
> application?
>
>
> A simple majority vote is clearly inadequate for this vote, but I'm
> afraid that without assisting technology (instant and visual  
> feedback),
> the voting process will more or less deteriorate to that due to the
> difficulty of creating quality input votes.

I have to agree that the UI for voting is not the best I've ever  
seen.  On the other hand, it's pretty easy to select the few logos  
that you like, and push them all to the top, select the ones you'd  
accept, and push them up just below, and finally select the ones you  
absolutely don't like and push them all the way down.

That at least is what I did.

Bob
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Re: Re: Haskell Logo Voting has started!

greenrd
On Tue, 17 Mar 2009 16:11:54 +0100
Thomas Davie <[hidden email]> wrote:

> I have to agree that the UI for voting is not the best I've ever  
> seen.  On the other hand, it's pretty easy to select the few logos  
> that you like, and push them all to the top, select the ones you'd  
> accept, and push them up just below, and finally select the ones you  
> absolutely don't like and push them all the way down.
>
> That at least is what I did.

Did you check that code bugs hadn't reordered your votes? I am worried
about this destroying the validity of the election.
--
Robin
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Re: Re: Haskell Logo Voting has started!

greenrd
In reply to this post by Thomas Davie
I am also concerned that the default behaviour of the buttons will
lead to arbitrary preference rankings favouring those with entries
that start more towards the top or bottom of the list. You shouldn't
have to go to a lot of extra effort to create a tie between several
entries, if you can't decide (or don't want to decide) between them.

However, this isn't as significant as the buggy reordering behaviour
I'm seeing.
--
Robin
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Re: Re: Haskell Logo Voting has started!

Rick Richardson
In reply to this post by greenrd
And we thought butterfly ballots were bad.

I just went through the logo page and wrote down my favorite 20 logos in one column, and gave them a rank in the other. Then translated that into the voting list using the combo boxes (not the buttons).  The total process took 20 minutes.

I am on FF3 on windows and didn't notice any reordering aside the (un?)expected reordering by rank.


On Tue, Mar 17, 2009 at 12:12 AM, Robin Green <[hidden email]> wrote:
On Tue, 17 Mar 2009 16:11:54 +0100
Thomas Davie <[hidden email]> wrote:

> I have to agree that the UI for voting is not the best I've ever
> seen.  On the other hand, it's pretty easy to select the few logos
> that you like, and push them all to the top, select the ones you'd
> accept, and push them up just below, and finally select the ones you
> absolutely don't like and push them all the way down.
>
> That at least is what I did.

Did you check that code bugs hadn't reordered your votes? I am worried
about this destroying the validity of the election.
--
Robin
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We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them.
   - A. Einstein

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Re: Haskell Logo Voting has started!

Gwern Branwen
In reply to this post by Eelco Lempsink-4
2009/3/17 Eelco Lempsink <[hidden email]>:

> Hi there!
>
> I updated a couple of logo versions and ungrouped and regrouped the (former)
> number 31.  Other than that, there was nothing standing in the way of the
> voting to begin imho, so I started up the competition.
>
> By now, I suppose everybody should have received their ballot.  If you think
> you should have received it but didn't, please report it, I can resend the
> invitation.  Also, for people not directly subscribed to the haskell-cafe
> mailing list, you can still send ballot requests until the end of the
> competition (March 24, 12:00 UTC).  Make sure the message contains 'haskell
> logo voting ballot request' (e.g. in the subject).
>
> Depending on the winner of this voting round we can decide whether we need
> to continue with variations.  Jared Updike already offered to donate a bit
> of time to help create several variations.  But for now, good luck with
> sorting those options! :)
>
> --
> Regards,
>
> Eelco Lempsink

I've personally voted, but it's true that 113 logos is a bit much even
if you only vote on about 20 of them!

Can we assume that the next round will be more like 10?

Also, what is the plan if one of the joke logos (like the boobies one)
makes it into the final round? Will it just be quietly removed?

Finally, I'd like to make a suggestion as to the final results.
Typically there's a tension between a Free & trademarked logo and a
just Free logo. ie. see how Debian does it:
http://www.debian.org/logos/ "Although Debian can be obtained for free
and will always remain that way, events such as the problem with the
ownership of the term “Linux” have shown that Debian needs to protect
its property from any use which could hurt its reputation. Debian has
decided to create two logos: one logo is for official Debian use; the
other logo falls under an open use type license."

We could have the top result be the official logo, and the second
result be unofficial. In this way, both logos win: the former will
appear in all the official high-prestige locations, but the latter
will likely get reused more.

Admittedly, it's unlikely the two top finishers will have quite the
same thematic unity as the two Debian logos, but I think it's a
suggestion worth entertaining.

--
gwern
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Re: Re: Haskell Logo Voting has started!

Eelco Lempsink-4
In reply to this post by Heinrich Apfelmus
On 17 mrt 2009, at 15:24, Heinrich Apfelmus wrote:

> Eelco Lempsink wrote:
>> I updated a couple of logo versions and ungrouped and regrouped the
>> (former) number 31.  Other than that, there was nothing standing in  
>> the
>> way of the voting to begin imho, so I started up the competition.
>
> Thanks for organizing this, finally I can choose ... Oh my god! How  
> am I
> supposed to make a vote?
>
> I can barely remember 3 of the 113 logos, let alone memorize that #106
> is the narwhal. There are lots of very good or just good candidates  
> and
> I would like to order them all to my liking, but without instant  
> visual
> feedback on the voting ballot, this is a hopeless task.
>
> Since I have about 10 minutes to spare for voting, I'm just going to
> pick 5 candidates at random and order these? Actually, I think I  
> prefer
> to be completely paralyzed by the overwhelming choice instead and not
> vote at all.
I can imagine that, it's a daunting and (optionally) time consuming  
task.  The burden of democracy ;)

> Alternatively, it seems that it's possible to upload rankings from a
> file. But which format?

Good question.  I don't know and couldn't find it in the CIVS FAQ  
either.

> And is there a zip file with the logo proposals
> so I can try to arrange them via drag&drop in some picture gallery
> application?

Well, actually, there is, since the files were moved to the main  
Haskell server after the community server couldn't bear the load  
anymore (Igloo saving the day! ;).  You can get all the files from http://haskell.org/logos/logos.tar.gz 
.  Note that there are probably a couple of files in there that are  
not in the competition, but artifacts from before (re)grouping some of  
the logos.

> A simple majority vote is clearly inadequate for this vote, but I'm
> afraid that without assisting technology (instant and visual  
> feedback),
> the voting process will more or less deteriorate to that due to the
> difficulty of creating quality input votes.

We'll see.  Worst case: nobody votes (with 123 votes at this moment, I  
don't think that will be the problem).  Second worst case: most people  
don't have/take the time to order a bit, so it turns into a majority  
vote.

That said, you're absolutely right the visual feedback of the voting  
system is suboptimal.  I'd be very interested in seeing a good UI for  
this sort of task.  I imagine it'd be pretty close to printing  
everything on small pieces of paper and ordering them by hand ;)

--
Regards,

Eelco Lempsink

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Re: Re: Haskell Logo Voting has started!

Eelco Lempsink-4
In reply to this post by Rick Richardson
On 17 mrt 2009, at 16:33, Rick R wrote:
> I just went through the logo page and wrote down my favorite 20  
> logos in one column, and gave them a rank in the other. Then  
> translated that into the voting list using the combo boxes (not the  
> buttons).  The total process took 20 minutes.


Yeah, the combo boxes are terribly slow.  I tried them with a smaller  
poll, and there seems to be a bit of exponential behavior.  If you  
want to do it this way (pick x, rank them), I suggest you start with  
putting the ones you ranked lowest on top first, using the 'to top'  
button, and then move the up your list to put the next one on top  
until you reached the top one.

--
Regards,

Eelco Lempsink


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Re: Haskell Logo Voting has started!

Eelco Lempsink-4
In reply to this post by Gwern Branwen
On 17 mrt 2009, at 16:34, Gwern Branwen wrote:
> Can we assume that the next round will be more like 10?

Depends a bit on the outcome.  There will be one winner, and depending  
on the winner there might be a number of variations we want to vote  
about.  Only if it's a really really close call multiple logos will  
win.  We have to choose at one point ;)

> Also, what is the plan if one of the joke logos (like the boobies one)
> makes it into the final round? Will it just be quietly removed?

We'll see.  I expect the community is grown up enough and things will  
sort out itself.

--
Regards,

Eelco Lempsink


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Re: Haskell Logo Voting has started!

MigMit
In reply to this post by Eelco Lempsink-4
The first glimpse of this vote scared me so much that I've closed the  
page, stopped the browser and shut my computer down.

On 17 Mar 2009, at 16:06, Eelco Lempsink wrote:

> Hi there!
>
> I updated a couple of logo versions and ungrouped and regrouped the  
> (former) number 31.  Other than that, there was nothing standing in  
> the way of the voting to begin imho, so I started up the competition.
>
> By now, I suppose everybody should have received their ballot.  If  
> you think you should have received it but didn't, please report it,  
> I can resend the invitation.  Also, for people not directly  
> subscribed to the haskell-cafe mailing list, you can still send  
> ballot requests until the end of the competition (March 24, 12:00  
> UTC).  Make sure the message contains 'haskell logo voting ballot  
> request' (e.g. in the subject).
>
> Depending on the winner of this voting round we can decide whether  
> we need to continue with variations.  Jared Updike already offered  
> to donate a bit of time to help create several variations.  But for  
> now, good luck with sorting those options! :)
>
> --
> Regards,
>
> Eelco Lempsink
>
> _______________________________________________
> Haskell-Cafe mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe

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Re: Re: Haskell Logo Voting has started!

Daniel Schüssler
In reply to this post by Eelco Lempsink-4
Hi,

> Even worse, the buttons for moving items up and down are buggy - at
> least on my browser (Firefox 3.1 beta 2 on Linux). They sometimes
> reorder my other votes! Even assuming that the list box code is not
> buggy (which I now doubt), not being able to use the buttons makes this
> form almost unusable!

I guess it works like this:

"Move down" on an element X will make the /smallest/ change (with respect to
the abstract ordering) that makes X worse than it's current value. This may
require changing more than one number, for example if we have:

(105:  ) (106: A) (107: X,B) (108: C,D) (109: E  ) (110:  )

moving down X will result in either

(105: A) (106: B) (107: X  ) (108: C,D) (109: D  ) (110:  )

or equivalently

(105:  ) (106: A) (107: B  ) (108: X  ) (109: C,D) (110: D)

of course, maybe you already know that but you're saying that it is doing this
wrongly ;)

Btw, I really think the logos should be on the same page as the voting form.
Hotkeys for the buttons would be good too.

It's usable though if you (incorrectly) consider the numbers as a sort of
reverse "star rating" to make a O(n) pass, possibly finetuning later.


Greetings,
Daniel
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Re: Re: Haskell Logo Voting has started!

Daniel Schüssler
(correction of the example)

(105:  ) (106: A) (107: X,B) (108: C,D) (109: E  ) (110:  )

moving down X will result in either

(105: A) (106: B) (107: X  ) (108: C,D) (109: E  ) (110:  )

or equivalently

(105:  ) (106: A) (107: B  ) (108: X  ) (109: C,D) (110: E)
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Re: Re: Haskell Logo Voting has started!

Rick Richardson
QED

2009/3/17 Daniel Schüssler <[hidden email]>
(correction of the example)

(105:  ) (106: A) (107: X,B) (108: C,D) (109: E  ) (110:  )

moving down X will result in either

(105: A) (106: B) (107: X  ) (108: C,D) (109: E  ) (110:  )

or equivalently

(105:  ) (106: A) (107: B  ) (108: X  ) (109: C,D) (110: E)
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Re: Re: Haskell Logo Voting has started!

greenrd
In reply to this post by Daniel Schüssler
On Tue, 17 Mar 2009 20:34:12 +0100
Daniel Schüssler <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hi,
>
> > Even worse, the buttons for moving items up and down are buggy - at
> > least on my browser (Firefox 3.1 beta 2 on Linux). They sometimes
> > reorder my other votes! Even assuming that the list box code is not
> > buggy (which I now doubt), not being able to use the buttons makes
> > this form almost unusable!
>
> I guess it works like this:
>
> "Move down" on an element X will make the /smallest/ change (with
> respect to the abstract ordering) that makes X worse than it's
> current value. This may require changing more than one number, for
> example if we have:
>
> (105:  ) (106: A) (107: X,B) (108: C,D) (109: E  ) (110:  )
>
> moving down X will result in either
>
> (105: A) (106: B) (107: X  ) (108: C,D) (109: D  ) (110:  )
>
> or equivalently
>
> (105:  ) (106: A) (107: B  ) (108: X  ) (109: C,D) (110: D)
>
> of course, maybe you already know that but you're saying that it is
> doing this wrongly ;)

Yes, I am saying that. To be more specific: I saw the current Haskell
logo get put back in the top position even though I had pushed it down,
and I saw three of my choices which I ranked quite highly, pushed
down to the bottom. Scarily bad.

However, I am now hacking together a quick-and-dirty utility for
ranking things which I will put on hackage. I'm not sure that anyone
other than myself will use it, but it's fun hacking it up.

--
Robin
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Re: Re: Haskell Logo Voting has started!

greenrd
In reply to this post by Daniel Schüssler
On Tue, 17 Mar 2009 20:34:12 +0100
Daniel Schüssler <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hi,
>
> > Even worse, the buttons for moving items up and down are buggy - at
> > least on my browser (Firefox 3.1 beta 2 on Linux). They sometimes
> > reorder my other votes! Even assuming that the list box code is not
> > buggy (which I now doubt), not being able to use the buttons makes
> > this form almost unusable!
>
> I guess it works like this:
>
> "Move down" on an element X will make the /smallest/ change (with
> respect to the abstract ordering) that makes X worse than it's
> current value. This may require changing more than one number, for
> example if we have:
>
> (105:  ) (106: A) (107: X,B) (108: C,D) (109: E  ) (110:  )
>
> moving down X will result in either
>
> (105: A) (106: B) (107: X  ) (108: C,D) (109: D  ) (110:  )
>
> or equivalently
>
> (105:  ) (106: A) (107: B  ) (108: X  ) (109: C,D) (110: D)
>
> of course, maybe you already know that but you're saying that it is
> doing this wrongly ;)

Yes, I am saying that. To be more specific: I saw the current Haskell
logo get put back in the top position even though I had pushed it down,
and I saw three of my choices which I ranked quite highly, pushed
down to the bottom. Scarily bad.

However, I am now hacking together a quick-and-dirty utility for
ranking things which I will put on hackage. I'm not sure that anyone
other than myself will use it, but it's fun hacking it up.

--
Robin
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Re: Re: Haskell Logo Voting has started!

greenrd
In reply to this post by Daniel Schüssler
On Tue, 17 Mar 2009 20:34:12 +0100
Daniel Schüssler <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hi,
>
> > Even worse, the buttons for moving items up and down are buggy - at
> > least on my browser (Firefox 3.1 beta 2 on Linux). They sometimes
> > reorder my other votes! Even assuming that the list box code is not
> > buggy (which I now doubt), not being able to use the buttons makes
> > this form almost unusable!
>
> I guess it works like this:
>
> "Move down" on an element X will make the /smallest/ change (with
> respect to the abstract ordering) that makes X worse than it's
> current value. This may require changing more than one number, for
> example if we have:
>
> (105:  ) (106: A) (107: X,B) (108: C,D) (109: E  ) (110:  )
>
> moving down X will result in either
>
> (105: A) (106: B) (107: X  ) (108: C,D) (109: D  ) (110:  )
>
> or equivalently
>
> (105:  ) (106: A) (107: B  ) (108: X  ) (109: C,D) (110: D)
>
> of course, maybe you already know that but you're saying that it is
> doing this wrongly ;)

Yes, I am saying that. To be more specific: I saw the current Haskell
logo get put back in the top position even though I had pushed it down,
and I saw three of my choices which I ranked quite highly, pushed
down to the bottom. Scarily bad.

However, I am now hacking together a quick-and-dirty utility for
ranking things which I will put on hackage. I'm not sure that anyone
other than myself will use it, but it's fun hacking it up.

--
Robin
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Re: Re: Haskell Logo Voting has started!

Daniel Schüssler
In reply to this post by Rick Richardson
On Tuesday 17 March 2009 21:03:21 Rick R wrote:
> QED

Hmm? Maybe if confusingness was to be demonstrated, but not bugginess. Both
possibilities will result in the same total preordering (defined by (x
`betterThanOrEq` y) iff (numberInCombobox x <= numberInCombobox y)), and
(AFAIK) only this ordering matters for condorcet.


Greetings,
Daniel
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Re: Re: Haskell Logo Voting has started!

greenrd
In reply to this post by Daniel Schüssler
On Tue, 17 Mar 2009 20:34:12 +0100
Daniel Schüssler <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hi,
>
> > Even worse, the buttons for moving items up and down are buggy - at
> > least on my browser (Firefox 3.1 beta 2 on Linux). They sometimes
> > reorder my other votes! Even assuming that the list box code is not
> > buggy (which I now doubt), not being able to use the buttons makes
> > this form almost unusable!
>
> I guess it works like this:
>
> "Move down" on an element X will make the /smallest/ change (with
> respect to the abstract ordering) that makes X worse than it's
> current value. This may require changing more than one number, for
> example if we have:
>
> (105:  ) (106: A) (107: X,B) (108: C,D) (109: E  ) (110:  )
>
> moving down X will result in either
>
> (105: A) (106: B) (107: X  ) (108: C,D) (109: D  ) (110:  )
>
> or equivalently
>
> (105:  ) (106: A) (107: B  ) (108: X  ) (109: C,D) (110: D)
>
> of course, maybe you already know that but you're saying that it is
> doing this wrongly ;)

Yes, I am saying that. To be more specific: I saw the current Haskell
logo get put back in the top position even though I had pushed it down,
and I saw three of my choices which I ranked quite highly, pushed
down to the bottom. Scarily bad.

However, I am now hacking together a quick-and-dirty utility for
ranking things which I will put on hackage. I'm not sure that anyone
other than myself will use it, but it's fun hacking it up.

--
Robin
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