Haskell Logo Voting will start soon!

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Haskell Logo Voting will start soon!

Eelco Lempsink-4
Hi there!

It's been quiet for a while around the 'new logo' competition, but  
here is how it is going to work:

The list with options can be found here (for now): http://community.haskell.org/~eelco/poll.html 
   Notice that some (very) similar logos are grouped as one option  
(thanks to Ian Lynagh) All submissions compete, so that still makes  
more than a 100 options!

The voting system we'll use is the Condorcet Internet Voting System (http://www.cs.cornell.edu/andru/civs.html 
).  The poll won't be public, but every subscriber to Haskell-Cafe  
will get a (private) voting ballot by email.  The poll will (probably)  
start March 16 and run for about a week (don't worry, there will be a  
strict deadline communicated).  When the poll is over, the results  
will be viewable by everybody.

The CIVS allows easy grouping and ordering, so the task of ordering  
100 options should be doable within 5-10 minutes.  If you're in a  
hurry you can do it a lot faster, just pick your favorite and put it  
first.  If you want to learn more about condorcet voting, the CIVS  
site and Wikipedia are your friends.

I'll supervise the poll and make sure it's started, stopped and all  
Haskell-Cafe subscribers get a ballot (Simon Marlow provided the email  
addresses).  Since I'm going on a (probably internet deprived) holiday  
for a week _and_ to make sure I haven't overlooked anything, I'm  
announcing it now but won't start the poll till March 16.  Of course,  
I'd love to hear about anything that I missed and/or that might  
influence the voting process in a significant way.  (There are  
probably some people subscribed with multiple addresses, but I'll be  
using the subscriber list from yesterday, so signing up now with lots  
of addresses won't get you more ballots ;)

--
Regards,

Eelco Lempsink


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Re: Haskell Logo Voting will start soon!

Achim Schneider
Eelco Lempsink <[hidden email]> wrote:

> The poll won't be public, but every subscriber to Haskell-Cafe  
> will get a (private) voting ballot by email.
>
What about us gmane users?

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Re: Haskell Logo Voting will start soon!

Don Stewart-2
In reply to this post by Eelco Lempsink-4
eelco:

> Hi there!
>
> It's been quiet for a while around the 'new logo' competition, but here
> is how it is going to work:
>
> The list with options can be found here (for now):
> http://community.haskell.org/~eelco/poll.html  Notice that some (very)
> similar logos are grouped as one option (thanks to Ian Lynagh) All
> submissions compete, so that still makes more than a 100 options!
>
> The voting system we'll use is the Condorcet Internet Voting System
> (http://www.cs.cornell.edu/andru/civs.html).  The poll won't be public,
> but every subscriber to Haskell-Cafe will get a (private) voting ballot
> by email.  The poll will (probably) start March 16 and run for about a
> week (don't worry, there will be a strict deadline communicated).  When
> the poll is over, the results will be viewable by everybody.
>
> The CIVS allows easy grouping and ordering, so the task of ordering 100
> options should be doable within 5-10 minutes.  If you're in a hurry you
> can do it a lot faster, just pick your favorite and put it first.  If you
> want to learn more about condorcet voting, the CIVS site and Wikipedia
> are your friends.
>
> I'll supervise the poll and make sure it's started, stopped and all  
> Haskell-Cafe subscribers get a ballot (Simon Marlow provided the email  
> addresses).  Since I'm going on a (probably internet deprived) holiday  
> for a week _and_ to make sure I haven't overlooked anything, I'm  
> announcing it now but won't start the poll till March 16.  Of course,  
> I'd love to hear about anything that I missed and/or that might  
> influence the voting process in a significant way.  (There are probably
> some people subscribed with multiple addresses, but I'll be using the
> subscriber list from yesterday, so signing up now with lots of addresses
> won't get you more ballots ;)

Excellent work Eelco, and thanks for pushing this forward!

-- Don
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RE: Haskell Logo Voting will start soon!

Bayley, Alistair-3
In reply to this post by Eelco Lempsink-4
> The voting system we'll use is the Condorcet Internet Voting
> System (http://www.cs.cornell.edu/andru/civs.html 
> ).  The poll won't be public, but every subscriber to Haskell-Cafe  
> will get a (private) voting ballot by email.

> I'll supervise the poll and make sure it's started, stopped and all  
> Haskell-Cafe subscribers get a ballot (Simon Marlow provided
> the email addresses).

> I'd love to hear about anything that I missed and/or that might  
> influence the voting process in a significant way.  (There are  
> probably some people subscribed with multiple addresses, but I'll be  
> using the subscriber list from yesterday, so signing up now
> with lots of addresses won't get you more ballots ;)

I was wondering if you were addressing duplication. I've been subscribed to café for a long time with at least two email addresses (work and home) but I don't think I should be getting two votes.

Alistair
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Re: Haskell Logo Voting will start soon!

Magnus Therning
On Fri, Mar 6, 2009 at 9:08 AM, Bayley, Alistair
<[hidden email]> wrote:

>> The voting system we'll use is the Condorcet Internet Voting
>> System (http://www.cs.cornell.edu/andru/civs.html
>> ).  The poll won't be public, but every subscriber to Haskell-Cafe
>> will get a (private) voting ballot by email.
>
>> I'll supervise the poll and make sure it's started, stopped and all
>> Haskell-Cafe subscribers get a ballot (Simon Marlow provided
>> the email addresses).
>
>> I'd love to hear about anything that I missed and/or that might
>> influence the voting process in a significant way.  (There are
>> probably some people subscribed with multiple addresses, but I'll be
>> using the subscriber list from yesterday, so signing up now
>> with lots of addresses won't get you more ballots ;)
>
> I was wondering if you were addressing duplication. I've been subscribed to café for a long time with at least two email addresses (work and home) but I don't think I should be getting two votes.

Given the size of the group, and the extremely high standard of the
members when it comes to moral fibre, common sense, intelligense, etc,
etc, do we really need to enforce prevention of duplication?

:-)

/M

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RE: Haskell Logo Voting will start soon!

Bayley, Alistair-3
> >> I'd love to hear about anything that I missed and/or that might
> >> influence the voting process in a significant way.  (There are
> >> probably some people subscribed with multiple addresses,
> but I'll be
> >> using the subscriber list from yesterday, so signing up now
> >> with lots of addresses won't get you more ballots ;)
> >
> > I was wondering if you were addressing duplication. I've
> been subscribed to café for a long time with at least two
> email addresses (work and home) but I don't think I should be
> getting two votes.
>
> Given the size of the group, and the extremely high standard of the
> members when it comes to moral fibre, common sense, intelligense, etc,
> etc, do we really need to enforce prevention of duplication?

Well, that is one possible solution (let it ride). I don't know what the level of email address duplication is, so I don't know the risk.

Voting systems generally have to make a lot of effort to be fair, otherwise detractors can reasonably claim that the result is not valid. And as this is somewhat of a bike-shed level decision, you should expect a great deal of interest and passion!

Alistair
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Re: Re: Haskell Logo Voting will start soon!

Eelco Lempsink-4
In reply to this post by Achim Schneider
On 6 mrt 2009, at 00:03, Achim Schneider wrote:
> Eelco Lempsink <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> The poll won't be public, but every subscriber to Haskell-Cafe
>> will get a (private) voting ballot by email.
>>
> What about us gmane users?


Good point!  All of you can send me your email address (directly,  
please don't use the group/list) if you want to participate.  I'll  
merge that with the subscribers list.

Please include "haskell logo voting ballot request" in the subject or  
body and write a small but unique message so I can (more or less)  
check you're not just trying to get extra votes and to make it more  
likely it passes my spamfilter (I'll check my spamfolder, but with the  
thousands messages a day pouring in to it I might miss your message).

As Magnus Therning remarked, I also trust "the size of the group, and  
the extremely high standard of the members when it comes to moral  
fibre, common sense, intelligense, etc" to prevent duplication or at  
least a significant impact on the result ;)

Consider yourself added to the ballot list, Achim, and thanks for  
bringing this point up.

--
Regards,

Eelco Lempsink


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Logo Preferences

Ashley Yakeley
In reply to this post by Eelco Lempsink-4
Eelco Lempsink wrote:

> The list with options can be found here (for now):
> http://community.haskell.org/~eelco/poll.html  Notice that some (very)
> similar logos are grouped as one option (thanks to Ian Lynagh) All
> submissions compete, so that still makes more than a 100 options!
>
> The voting system we'll use is the Condorcet Internet Voting System
> (http://www.cs.cornell.edu/andru/civs.html).

So ranking all 100+ items on the Condorcet ballot is a bit of a daunting
task. However, if we get a rough idea of the favourites, we can each cut
down a bit on the work.

For instance, suppose 82 and 93 are very popular. You might not like
either of them, but it's worth ranking them on your ballot (after the
ones you do like) if you have a preference between them. But there's
less need to rank the ones no-one likes.

I'm currently liking

30 (specifically, 30.7)
58
61 (specifically, the second image)
62

--
Ashley Yakeley
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Re: Logo Preferences

jfredett
Another alternative, perhaps we rank the first n we care about, and
regard the rest as ranked as low as possible?

Since Condorcet allows ties, it should work -- I don't know if it
_technically_ allows for skipping ranks, though, but I imagine it would
still work...

Ashley Yakeley wrote:

> Eelco Lempsink wrote:
>
>> The list with options can be found here (for now):
>> http://community.haskell.org/~eelco/poll.html  Notice that some
>> (very) similar logos are grouped as one option (thanks to Ian Lynagh)
>> All submissions compete, so that still makes more than a 100 options!
>>
>> The voting system we'll use is the Condorcet Internet Voting System
>> (http://www.cs.cornell.edu/andru/civs.html).
>
> So ranking all 100+ items on the Condorcet ballot is a bit of a
> daunting task. However, if we get a rough idea of the favourites, we
> can each cut down a bit on the work.
>
> For instance, suppose 82 and 93 are very popular. You might not like
> either of them, but it's worth ranking them on your ballot (after the
> ones you do like) if you have a preference between them. But there's
> less need to rank the ones no-one likes.
>
> I'm currently liking
>
> 30 (specifically, 30.7)
> 58
> 61 (specifically, the second image)
> 62
>

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Re: Logo Preferences

Tristan Seligmann-3
2009/3/9 Joseph Fredette <[hidden email]>
>
> Another alternative, perhaps we rank the first n we care about, and regard the rest as ranked as low as possible?
>
> Since Condorcet allows ties, it should work -- I don't know if it _technically_ allows for skipping ranks, though, but I imagine it would still work...

Only the relative ranking of the options in your ballot should matter; so there's really no such thing as "skipping" a rank. However, I am not familiar with the CIVS implementation specifically, so don't take my assertion as authoritative.
--
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Re: Logo Preferences

Wirt Wolff
In reply to this post by Ashley Yakeley
Excerpts from Ashley Yakeley's message of Sun Mar 08 17:19:43 -0600 2009:

> Eelco Lempsink wrote:
>
> > The list with options can be found here (for now):
> > http://community.haskell.org/~eelco/poll.html  Notice that some (very)
> > similar logos are grouped as one option (thanks to Ian Lynagh) All
> > submissions compete, so that still makes more than a 100 options!
> >
> > The voting system we'll use is the Condorcet Internet Voting System
> > (http://www.cs.cornell.edu/andru/civs.html).
>
 
> I'm currently liking
>
> ....
> 61 (specifically, the second image)

Forgive my asking for even more options here, (plenty of paint to cover
the shed as it is), but regarding 61, a couple of those are in my top
few, while the rest rank considerably lower. Would it be possible to
distinguish them like the ones in 30? No worries if not, seems there
may need to be some refinement process after this round anyway.

--
wmw
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Re: Logo Preferences

Benjamin L. Russell
In reply to this post by Ashley Yakeley
On Sun, 08 Mar 2009 16:19:43 -0700, Ashley Yakeley
<[hidden email]> wrote:

>[...]
>
>I'm currently liking
>
>30 (specifically, 30.7)
>58
>61 (specifically, the second image)
>62

It would be nice to be able to specify a specific member image of a
group of images; for example, the second image in group 61. Currently,
none of the member images in group 61 is individually numbered; will
we be able to choose a specific image from this kind of group?

Also, it might be nice to have some more variations for group 61,
specifically; for example, it may be nice to be able to select the
text for the second image, combined with the snowflake symbol for the
lower-right corner logo of the leftmost rectangle of images:  Although
the font for the two is identical, the spacing is subtly wider in the
former.

-- Benjamin L. Russell
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Re: Logo Preferences

Johan Tibell-2
In reply to this post by Ashley Yakeley
On Mon, Mar 9, 2009 at 12:19 AM, Ashley Yakeley <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Eelco Lempsink wrote:
>
>> The list with options can be found here (for now):
>> http://community.haskell.org/~eelco/poll.html  Notice that some (very)
>> similar logos are grouped as one option (thanks to Ian Lynagh) All
>> submissions compete, so that still makes more than a 100 options!

Lots of nice submissions! Here are some thing that are worth keeping
in mind when voting. How does the logo work:

* on different backgrounds (in particular: white),
* at small sizes (on file system icons, 16x16 pixels browser favicon, etc), and
* in different cultures (i.e. does it contain e.g. a pun that many
people won't understand).

Cheers,

Johan
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Re: Logo Preferences

Sebastian Sylvan
In reply to this post by Ashley Yakeley


On Sun, Mar 8, 2009 at 11:19 PM, Ashley Yakeley <[hidden email]> wrote:
Eelco Lempsink wrote:

The list with options can be found here (for now): http://community.haskell.org/~eelco/poll.html  Notice that some (very) similar logos are grouped as one option (thanks to Ian Lynagh) All submissions compete, so that still makes more than a 100 options!

The voting system we'll use is the Condorcet Internet Voting System (http://www.cs.cornell.edu/andru/civs.html).

So ranking all 100+ items on the Condorcet ballot is a bit of a daunting task. However, if we get a rough idea of the favourites, we can each cut down a bit on the work.

For instance, suppose 82 and 93 are very popular. You might not like either of them, but it's worth ranking them on your ballot (after the ones you do like) if you have a preference between them. But there's less need to rank the ones no-one likes.
 
I'm pretty sure this is precisely how the system works. You bring the ones you care about to the top and rank them, and everything else shares a rank at the bottom (or you could pick a few of those that you really dislike and put them even lower than the default rank). But the point is that you shouldn't need to rank every single logo, just the ones you care about and then you leave the rest at the default rank.

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Re[2]: Logo Preferences

Bulat Ziganshin-2
Hello Sebastian,

Monday, March 9, 2009, 1:08:50 PM, you wrote:

i think we should make 2-stage voting, like in F1

after 1st stage we will know which logos are most popular and
therefore are real candidates, so we can select among them


>  On Sun, Mar 8, 2009 at 11:19 PM, Ashley Yakeley <[hidden email]> wrote:
>  
> Eelco Lempsink wrote:

>  
> The list with options can be found here (for now):
> http://community.haskell.org/~eelco/poll.html  Notice that some
> (very) similar logos are grouped as one option (thanks to Ian
> Lynagh) All submissions compete, so that still makes more than a 100 options!
>  
> The voting system we'll use is the Condorcet Internet Voting System
> (http://www.cs.cornell.edu/andru/civs.html).


> So ranking all 100+ items on the Condorcet ballot is a bit of a
> daunting task. However, if we get a rough idea of the favourites, we
> can each cut down a bit on the work.
>  
> For instance, suppose 82 and 93 are very popular. You might not
> like either of them, but it's worth ranking them on your ballot
> (after the ones you do like) if you have a preference between them.
> But there's less need to rank the ones no-one likes.
>  
>  
>  
> I'm pretty sure this is precisely how the system works. You bring
> the ones you care about to the top and rank them, and everything
> else shares a rank at the bottom (or you could pick a few of those
> that you really dislike and put them even lower than the default
> rank). But the point is that you shouldn't need to rank every single
> logo, just the ones you care about and then you leave the rest at the default rank.
>  




--
Best regards,
 Bulat                            mailto:[hidden email]

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Re[2]: Logo Preferences

Henning Thielemann

On Mon, 9 Mar 2009, Bulat Ziganshin wrote:

> Hello Sebastian,
>
> Monday, March 9, 2009, 1:08:50 PM, you wrote:
>
> i think we should make 2-stage voting, like in F1
>
> after 1st stage we will know which logos are most popular and
> therefore are real candidates, so we can select among them

Sounds reasonable, although I thought that those advanced voting systems
are also intended for avoiding multiple elections. Then again, if both
elections lead to the same ranking at the top, and especially yield the
same top candidate, then this proves the soundness of the method. On the
other hand, a dictatorship would also satisfy this property. Yes, I know,
there was a Nobel Prize about that ...
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Re: Re[2]: Logo Preferences

Sebastian Sylvan
In reply to this post by Bulat Ziganshin-2


On Mon, Mar 9, 2009 at 10:30 AM, Bulat Ziganshin <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hello Sebastian,

Monday, March 9, 2009, 1:08:50 PM, you wrote:

i think we should make 2-stage voting, like in F1

after 1st stage we will know which logos are most popular and
therefore are real candidates, so we can select among them
 
 
One of the reasons condorcet voting is good is that this isn't needed. If everyone is consistent in which logos they prefer the results from second voting stage will be identical to just picking the condorcet voting from the first stage.
 
The interface to the condorcet voting site is actually pretty good (try out one of the samples), so it's pretty easy to just "move to top" the ones you prefer and move the ones you dislike to the bottom. Then you can ignore the vast majority of "don't care" logos in the middle, and just fine tune your ranking at the top and bottom.
 
--
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+44(0)7857-300802
UIN: 44640862

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Re: Re[2]: Logo Preferences

Sebastian Sylvan


On Mon, Mar 9, 2009 at 10:52 AM, Sebastian Sylvan <[hidden email]> wrote:


On Mon, Mar 9, 2009 at 10:30 AM, Bulat Ziganshin <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hello Sebastian,

Monday, March 9, 2009, 1:08:50 PM, you wrote:

i think we should make 2-stage voting, like in F1

after 1st stage we will know which logos are most popular and
therefore are real candidates, so we can select among them
 
 
One of the reasons condorcet voting is good is that this isn't needed. If everyone is consistent in which logos they prefer the results from second voting stage will be identical to just picking the condorcet voting from the first stage.
 
"picking the condorcet winner"


--
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+44(0)7857-300802
UIN: 44640862

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Re: Re: Logo Preferences

Sebastian Sylvan
In reply to this post by Benjamin L. Russell


On Mon, Mar 9, 2009 at 6:13 AM, Benjamin L. Russell <[hidden email]> wrote:
On Sun, 08 Mar 2009 16:19:43 -0700, Ashley Yakeley
<[hidden email]> wrote:

>[...]
>
>I'm currently liking
>
>30 (specifically, 30.7)
>58
>61 (specifically, the second image)
>62

It would be nice to be able to specify a specific member image of a
group of images; for example, the second image in group 61. Currently,
none of the member images in group 61 is individually numbered; will
we be able to choose a specific image from this kind of group?
 
Another reason condorcet voting is nice is that there is no need to group "similar" items together. Condorcet voting eliminates the "spoiler candidate" effect, so having N almost identical entries won't adversely affect that "group" (by spreading out the votes for that "group" among more "sub-entries" than for "groups" with only one entry in it).
 
So actually I don't understand whey the logos are grouped at all, they could all just be listed individually, and then people can put them all at the same rank ("make tie" in the interface) if they don't care which one of the group they want, or they can differentiate between them if they like. You could possibly name them "60 a", "60 b" etc. to indicate that they are similar, but there's no reason not to allow people to differentiate between them if tehy so choose.
 
 

--
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+44(0)7857-300802
UIN: 44640862

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Re: Re: Logo Preferences

Sean Leather

Another reason condorcet voting is nice is that there is no need to group "similar" items together. Condorcet voting eliminates the "spoiler candidate" effect, so having N almost identical entries won't adversely affect that "group" (by spreading out the votes for that "group" among more "sub-entries" than for "groups" with only one entry in it).
 
So actually I don't understand whey the logos are grouped at all, they could all just be listed individually, and then people can put them all at the same rank ("make tie" in the interface) if they don't care which one of the group they want, or they can differentiate between them if they like. You could possibly name them "60 a", "60 b" etc. to indicate that they are similar, but there's no reason not to allow people to differentiate between them if tehy so choose.

I agree with this. There are some groupings that seem arbitrary. For example, a number of entries are grouped together, because they use the same graphic with different colors. I think color is an important part of a logo. (Many companies have a recognizable color scheme that covers more than just their logo. See sun.com, microsoft.com, etc.) It will be a major factor in my vote. I don't want to vote for a design that may have more than one possible outcome.

As for what Johan said, it's definitely helpful to see logos on black and white and in different sizes.

Sean

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