Haskell as a religion

Previous Topic Next Topic
 
classic Classic list List threaded Threaded
22 messages Options
12
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Haskell as a religion

Hugo Pacheco
I just found this on the web.
Do you like the description of Haskell? It is not that far from true :P

http://www.aegisub.net/2008/12/if-programming-languages-were-religions.html

--
www.di.uminho.pt/~hpacheco

_______________________________________________
Haskell-Cafe mailing list
[hidden email]
http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Haskell as a religion

Paul Johnson-2
Hugo Pacheco wrote:
> http://www.aegisub.net/2008/12/if-programming-languages-were-religions.html
What does it mean, "*If* Programming Languages were religions"?

Paul.
_______________________________________________
Haskell-Cafe mailing list
[hidden email]
http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Haskell as a religion

Don Stewart-2
paul:
> Hugo Pacheco wrote:
> >http://www.aegisub.net/2008/12/if-programming-languages-were-religions.html
> What does it mean, "*If* Programming Languages were religions"?

I think of Haskell more as a revolutionary movement.
_______________________________________________
Haskell-Cafe mailing list
[hidden email]
http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Haskell as a religion

Andrew Coppin
Don Stewart wrote:
> I think of Haskell more as a revolutionary movement

LOL! Longest revolution EVER, eh? I mean, how long ago was its dogma
first codified? ;-)

The thing that saddens me is this:

http://prog21.dadgum.com/31.html

Basically, Haskell will never be popular, but its coolest ideas will be
stolen by everybody else and passed off as their own. :-(

_______________________________________________
Haskell-Cafe mailing list
[hidden email]
http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Haskell as a religion

Paul Johnson-2
In reply to this post by Don Stewart-2
Don Stewart wrote:
> paul:
>  
>> What does it mean, "*If* Programming Languages were religions"?
>>    
>
> I think of Haskell more as a revolutionary movement.
>
>  
Hmm.  Have a look at my submission for the logo contest.

Paul.

_______________________________________________
Haskell-Cafe mailing list
[hidden email]
http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Haskell as a religion

Bugzilla from jonathanccast@fastmail.fm
In reply to this post by Andrew Coppin
On Tue, 2008-12-16 at 20:38 +0000, Andrew Coppin wrote:
> Don Stewart wrote:
> > I think of Haskell more as a revolutionary movement
>
> LOL! Longest revolution EVER, eh?

No.

Das Kapital publication 1867.
Russian Revolution 1917.

FTW.

jcc


_______________________________________________
Haskell-Cafe mailing list
[hidden email]
http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Haskell as a religion

Luke Palmer-2
On Tue, Dec 16, 2008 at 2:21 PM, Jonathan Cast <[hidden email]> wrote:
On Tue, 2008-12-16 at 20:38 +0000, Andrew Coppin wrote:
> Don Stewart wrote:
> > I think of Haskell more as a revolutionary movement
>
> LOL! Longest revolution EVER, eh?

No.

Das Kapital publication 1867.
Russian Revolution 1917.

At the extreme, one could argue Church's 1936 publication about lambda calculus was our foundation, and since our revolution really hasn't happened yet, we would be winning.

But by that argument, the Buddhist revolution is beating us by quite a bit.

*dreams of a violent Buddhist revolution*

Luke

_______________________________________________
Haskell-Cafe mailing list
[hidden email]
http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Haskell as a religion

John Goerzen-3
In reply to this post by Andrew Coppin
Andrew Coppin wrote:
> Don Stewart wrote:
>> I think of Haskell more as a revolutionary movement
>
> LOL! Longest revolution EVER, eh? I mean, how long ago was its dogma
> first codified? ;-)

Lisp has been around for how long now?  Measured in decades.   We don't
even have our version of a Symbolics machine yet!

> Basically, Haskell will never be popular, but its coolest ideas will be
> stolen by everybody else and passed off as their own. :-(

Well, in a sense, if that happens, we would have won, right?  We'd have
created a situation where "paradigm shift" would mean more than just a
buzzword on some CEO's presentation slide ;-)

In another sense, isn't this what Haskell was explicitly created to do?
 (Combine ideas from a bunch of similar languages into one standard one)

Some ideas in Haskell are easy to integrate into other languages: see
list comprehensions in Python.  I don't see Perl picking up pervasive
laziness anytime soon, nor Python compile-time type inference.

-- John
_______________________________________________
Haskell-Cafe mailing list
[hidden email]
http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Haskell as a religion

Daniel van den Eijkel-2
In reply to this post by Bugzilla from jonathanccast@fastmail.fm
as some german right-hegelian thinkers of the beginning of the 20th
century noticed, the hegelian system is missing what we call 'action'.
the whole system can be described as a timeless and closed set of
invariant relations between parts of the world, which can also be seen
as gods thinking. this critique is similar to the marxist turn of the
hegelian philosophy.

now, thinking of an timeless set of invariant relations, that should be
extended by some concept of action, reminds me of haskell's monads. so I
would say, haskell is not a revolutionary movement itself, its just a
(or: THE) vehicle of the revolutionary progress that started 200 years
ago (some might say, 2000 years ago).
it's the place where the 'spirit of the world' comes to itself in these
days...

just kidding.

daniel

Jonathan Cast schrieb:

> On Tue, 2008-12-16 at 20:38 +0000, Andrew Coppin wrote:
>  
>> Don Stewart wrote:
>>    
>>> I think of Haskell more as a revolutionary movement
>>>      
>> LOL! Longest revolution EVER, eh?
>>    
>
> No.
>
> Das Kapital publication 1867.
> Russian Revolution 1917.
>
> FTW.
>
> jcc
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Haskell-Cafe mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-caf
_______________________________________________
Haskell-Cafe mailing list
[hidden email]
http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Fwd: Haskell as a religion

Alberto G. Corona
In reply to this post by John Goerzen-3
But many features need other features. For example, the option to use referential transparency will be common in future languages for multicore programming purposes.  This creates the problem of separating side-effect-free code from side-effect code. For this purpose, a strong type system at compile time is needed, which indeed need automatic type inference or, else, the user will be too busy with the details. The type inference open the door for experimenting with complex data types. class types is a logical step after that. Monads are the best option for many problems once the programmer have all te above. higuer order functions are being taken seriously in other languages. this goes to the need of currying and  lists. optional lazyness and tail recursion is the most elegant option for expressing lists managing code. Will all the above, explicit loops will be avoided by the programmer, this will end up in mode declarative programming style.

I think that once the average programmer start to use one or two of these features, he will feel a bit frustrated if its language don´t have all the others, specially if he know haskell. Probably, he will use haskell for fun. This is the best way for the takeover of the industry, because this has been so historically.

2008/12/18 John Goerzen <[hidden email]>

Andrew Coppin wrote:
> Don Stewart wrote:
>> I think of Haskell more as a revolutionary movement
>
> LOL! Longest revolution EVER, eh? I mean, how long ago was its dogma
> first codified? ;-)

Lisp has been around for how long now?  Measured in decades.   We don't
even have our version of a Symbolics machine yet!

> Basically, Haskell will never be popular, but its coolest ideas will be
> stolen by everybody else and passed off as their own. :-(

Well, in a sense, if that happens, we would have won, right?  We'd have
created a situation where "paradigm shift" would mean more than just a
buzzword on some CEO's presentation slide ;-)

In another sense, isn't this what Haskell was explicitly created to do?
 (Combine ideas from a bunch of similar languages into one standard one)

Some ideas in Haskell are easy to integrate into other languages: see
list comprehensions in Python.  I don't see Perl picking up pervasive
laziness anytime soon, nor Python compile-time type inference.

-- John
_______________________________________________
Haskell-Cafe mailing list
[hidden email]
http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe



_______________________________________________
Haskell-Cafe mailing list
[hidden email]
http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Haskell as a religion

Brandon S Allbery KF8NH
In reply to this post by John Goerzen-3
On 2008 Dec 18, at 9:13, John Goerzen wrote:
> Some ideas in Haskell are easy to integrate into other languages: see
> list comprehensions in Python.  I don't see Perl picking up pervasive
> laziness anytime soon, nor Python compile-time type inference.

I think perl6 is specced with pervasive laziness, although I'm not  
sure it's actually implemented anywhere.

--
brandon s. allbery [solaris,freebsd,perl,pugs,haskell] [hidden email]
system administrator [openafs,heimdal,too many hats] [hidden email]
electrical and computer engineering, carnegie mellon university    KF8NH


_______________________________________________
Haskell-Cafe mailing list
[hidden email]
http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Haskell as a religion

Brad Larsen
On Thu, 18 Dec 2008 11:27:14 -0500, Brandon S. Allbery KF8NH <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On 2008 Dec 18, at 9:13, John Goerzen wrote:
>> Some ideas in Haskell are easy to integrate into other languages: see
>> list comprehensions in Python.  I don't see Perl picking up pervasive
>> laziness anytime soon, nor Python compile-time type inference.
>
> I think perl6 is specced with pervasive laziness, although I'm not
> sure it's actually implemented anywhere.

I'm not sure about pervasive, but I read somewhere that Perl 6's lists are head-strict, tail-lazy by default...

Regards,
Brad Larsen
_______________________________________________
Haskell-Cafe mailing list
[hidden email]
http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Haskell as a religion

Paul Moore-2
In reply to this post by Brandon S Allbery KF8NH
2008/12/18 Brandon S. Allbery KF8NH <[hidden email]>:
> On 2008 Dec 18, at 9:13, John Goerzen wrote:
>>
>> Some ideas in Haskell are easy to integrate into other languages: see
>> list comprehensions in Python.  I don't see Perl picking up pervasive
>> laziness anytime soon, nor Python compile-time type inference.
>
> I think perl6 is specced with pervasive laziness, although I'm not sure it's
> actually implemented anywhere.

I assumed it was implemented lazily, so that when you use it
somewhere, the Perl 6 developers implement that part of the feature
:-)

Paul.
_______________________________________________
Haskell-Cafe mailing list
[hidden email]
http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Haskell as a religion

Brandon S Allbery KF8NH
On 2008 Dec 18, at 11:47, Paul Moore wrote:

> 2008/12/18 Brandon S. Allbery KF8NH <[hidden email]>:
>> On 2008 Dec 18, at 9:13, John Goerzen wrote:
>>>
>>> Some ideas in Haskell are easy to integrate into other languages:  
>>> see
>>> list comprehensions in Python.  I don't see Perl picking up  
>>> pervasive
>>> laziness anytime soon, nor Python compile-time type inference.
>>
>> I think perl6 is specced with pervasive laziness, although I'm not  
>> sure it's
>> actually implemented anywhere.
>
> I assumed it was implemented lazily, so that when you use it
> somewhere, the Perl 6 developers implement that part of the feature
> :-)


Lot of truth to that at the moment :)

--
brandon s. allbery [solaris,freebsd,perl,pugs,haskell] [hidden email]
system administrator [openafs,heimdal,too many hats] [hidden email]
electrical and computer engineering, carnegie mellon university    KF8NH


_______________________________________________
Haskell-Cafe mailing list
[hidden email]
http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Fwd: Haskell as a religion

Henning Thielemann-4
In reply to this post by Alberto G. Corona
Alberto G. Corona schrieb:
> But many features need other features. For example, the option to use
> referential transparency will be common in future languages for
> multicore programming purposes.  This creates the problem of separating
> side-effect-free code from side-effect code.

In C/C++ referential transparent functions code can be declared by
appending a 'const' to the prototype, right?

> I think that once the average programmer start to use one or two of
> these features, he will feel a bit frustrated if its language don´t have
> all the others, specially if he know haskell. Probably, he will use
> haskell for fun. This is the best way for the takeover of the industry,
> because this has been so historically.

Extrapolating the habit of programmers from the past to the future, I
predict that Haskell can only become a mainstream language once there is
a cleaner, simpler, safer and more powerful programming language than
Haskell.


_______________________________________________
Haskell-Cafe mailing list
[hidden email]
http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Fwd: Haskell as a religion

Max Rabkin-2
On Thu, Dec 18, 2008 at 4:15 PM, Henning Thielemann
<[hidden email]> wrote:
> Extrapolating the habit of programmers from the past to the future, I
> predict that Haskell can only become a mainstream language once there is
> a cleaner, simpler, safer and more powerful programming language than
> Haskell.

And so, finally, we find the fatal flaw in trying to create the
ultimate programming language.

--Max
_______________________________________________
Haskell-Cafe mailing list
[hidden email]
http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Fwd: Haskell as a religion

Isaac Dupree
In reply to this post by Henning Thielemann-4
Henning Thielemann wrote:
> Alberto G. Corona schrieb:
>> But many features need other features. For example, the option to use
>> referential transparency will be common in future languages for
>> multicore programming purposes.  This creates the problem of separating
>> side-effect-free code from side-effect code.
>
> In C/C++ referential transparent functions code can be declared by
> appending a 'const' to the prototype, right?

not quite.  GCC allows __attribute__((__const__)) or
__attribute__((__pure__)), to declare that, though (one of
them allows reading global variables, the other doesn't, I
forget which).  In C and C++ per standard, "const" can only
be applied to types, e.g. function arguments (including
C++'s implicit *this, via funny location of "const").  Maybe
C99 made up an additional way to use it, as it introduced
"restrict", I forget

-Isaac
_______________________________________________
Haskell-Cafe mailing list
[hidden email]
http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Fwd: Haskell as a religion

Dan Piponi-2
In reply to this post by Henning Thielemann-4
On Thu, Dec 18, 2008 at 4:15 PM, Henning Thielemann
<[hidden email]> wrote:

> In C/C++ referential transparent functions code can be declared by
> appending a 'const' to the prototype, right?

For one thing, some fields in a const C++ object can be explicitly set
mutable. mutable is sometimes used in C++ a similar way to
unsafePerformIO in Haskell. You have something that uses mutability in
its internals but that mutability shouldn't be observable to the
caller. In both cases you have no means of actually ensuring that the
mutability is actually unobservable.
--
Dan
_______________________________________________
Haskell-Cafe mailing list
[hidden email]
http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Fwd: Fwd: Haskell as a religion

Alberto G. Corona


---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Alberto G. Corona <[hidden email]>
Date: 2008/12/19
Subject: Re: Fwd: [Haskell-cafe] Haskell as a religion
To: Dan Piponi <[hidden email]>


As far as I know,  const only protect from updates that the compiler can detect at compilation time. Moreover, the C/C++ code does not make use of true referential transparency properties, for example   const a=1; const b=a   perform a copy of content of a to b . In haskell a=1; b=a  make b to point to a directly.

 

2008/12/19 Dan Piponi <[hidden email]>

On Thu, Dec 18, 2008 at 4:15 PM, Henning Thielemann
<[hidden email]> wrote:

> In C/C++ referential transparent functions code can be declared by
> appending a 'const' to the prototype, right?

For one thing, some fields in a const C++ object can be explicitly set
mutable. mutable is sometimes used in C++ a similar way to
unsafePerformIO in Haskell. You have something that uses mutability in
its internals but that mutability shouldn't be observable to the
caller. In both cases you have no means of actually ensuring that the
mutability is actually unobservable.
--
Dan



_______________________________________________
Haskell-Cafe mailing list
[hidden email]
http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Fwd: Haskell as a religion

Chung-chieh Shan-2
In reply to this post by Henning Thielemann-4
Henning Thielemann <[hidden email]> wrote in article <[hidden email]> in gmane.comp.lang.haskell.cafe:
> In C/C++ referential transparent functions code can be declared by
> appending a 'const' to the prototype, right?

No.

$ cat x.cc
int f() const;
int f() { return 3; }
$ gcc x.cc
x.cc:1: error: non-member function ???int f()??? cannot have cv-qualifier

You can define a const member function, but it can call rand() just
fine.

--
Edit this signature at http://www.digitas.harvard.edu/cgi-bin/ken/sig
If you want to go somewhere, goto is the best way to get there.
Ken Thompson.

_______________________________________________
Haskell-Cafe mailing list
[hidden email]
http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
12