Haskell web forum

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Haskell web forum

Bulat Ziganshin-2
Hello haskell,

i definitely think that to rise up Haskell popularity we need now to
create web forum. comparing to mail lists, it allows to faster
"include in communication" because all previous discussions are easily
available and simplifies participation for "strangers" that just have
several questions and don't want to subscribe/unsubscribe and setup
mail filters. moreover, participation in web forums requires less
technical knowledge and prevent spamming of mail address used

i heard that nowadays completed solutions available that need just to
install but i don't have experience of setting up and administering of
web forum. can anyone set up web forum on haskell.org server? i can
perform all user-level administration, wiping of spam messages and so on..

alternatively, is there a good place to set up "main" Haskell web
forum? from my POV, main requirements should be availability of
message base for archiving, and ability to create sub-forums. I plan
to create Russian section here, in order to help russian-speaking
developers to master Haskell

--
Best regards,
 Bulat                          mailto:[hidden email]

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Re: Haskell web forum

Taral
On 9/20/06, Bulat Ziganshin <[hidden email]> wrote:
> i definitely think that to rise up Haskell popularity we need now to
> create web forum.

I disagree with this. I don't like web forums, I don't use web forums
if I can avoid it. They're way more work than mailing lists. Plenty of
popular languages out there with no web forum.

--
Taral <[hidden email]>
"You can't prove anything."
    -- Gödel's Incompetence Theorem
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Re: Haskell web forum

Gour-2
On Wed, 2006-09-20 at 14:02 -0500, Taral wrote:


> Plenty of popular languages out there with no web forum.

Haskell is more than just a language - it's the community ;)

Sincerely,
Gour


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Re: Haskell web forum

Niklas Broberg
In reply to this post by Taral
> > i definitely think that to rise up Haskell popularity we need now to
> > create web forum.
>
> I disagree with this. I don't like web forums, I don't use web forums
> if I can avoid it. They're way more work than mailing lists.

And I disagree with you. I don't like mailing lists, and I don't use
them if I can avoid it. They're way more work than web forums. For the
end user at least, if perhaps not for the administrator. ;-)

It is much easier to keep conversations in context in a forum, and to
search for old conversations. It's all there, all the time. It is also
easy to create sub-groups/forums for specific projects, which will
both increase their accessibility for the rest of the community, and
draw the interest of new developers.

A mailing list will never be enough. A forum has way way more potential.

/Niklas
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Re: Haskell web forum

Jon Fairbairn
On 2006-09-20 at 21:19+0200 "Niklas Broberg" wrote:
> A mailing list will never be enough.

Really?

> A forum has way way more potential.

More potential than what we have already: <URL:
http://dir.gmane.org/gmane.comp.lang.haskell.general >?

 Jón

--
Jón Fairbairn                              Jon.Fairbairn at cl.cam.ac.uk


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Re: Haskell web forum

Aaron Denney
In reply to this post by Niklas Broberg
On 2006-09-20, Niklas Broberg <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> > i definitely think that to rise up Haskell popularity we need now to
>> > create web forum.
>>
>> I disagree with this. I don't like web forums, I don't use web forums
>> if I can avoid it. They're way more work than mailing lists.
>
> And I disagree with you. I don't like mailing lists, and I don't use
> them if I can avoid it. They're way more work than web forums. For the
> end user at least, if perhaps not for the administrator. ;-)

And I disagree with you.  Web forums are usenet reinvented poorly.
It's impossible to keep track of what's new, threading is either poor or
nonexistent.  Mailing lists with searchable archives work well.  gmane
provides a nice usenet interface to mailing lists.

> It's all there, all the time.

Yes, that's part of the problem.

> It is also  easy to create sub-groups/forums for specific projects,

This is the one semi-useful thing.  Of course, what you end up with is
another not-so-useful forum.

--
Aaron Denney
-><-

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Re: Haskell web forum

Taral
In reply to this post by Niklas Broberg
On 9/20/06, Niklas Broberg <[hidden email]> wrote:
> It is much easier to keep conversations in context in a forum, and to
> search for old conversations. It's all there, all the time.

Eh, I don't have this problem. I use gmail.

--
Taral <[hidden email]>
"You can't prove anything."
    -- Gödel's Incompetence Theorem
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Re: Haskell web forum

Niklas Broberg
In reply to this post by Jon Fairbairn
> More potential than what we have already: <URL:
> http://dir.gmane.org/gmane.comp.lang.haskell.general >?

Yes. How could we use that to create subforums for particular projects
or subcommunities?

/Niklas
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Re: Re: Haskell web forum

Niklas Broberg
In reply to this post by Aaron Denney
On 9/20/06, Aaron Denney <[hidden email]> wrote:
> And I disagree with you.  Web forums are usenet reinvented poorly.
> It's impossible to keep track of what's new, threading is either poor or
> nonexistent.  Mailing lists with searchable archives work well.  gmane
> provides a nice usenet interface to mailing lists.

I don't recognize the forums I frequent in your description at all. I
have absolutely no problem keeping up with what's new. In fact I find
it a lot easier since many of the topics take place in subforums that
I know don't interest me, so I don't even need to go there to check.
With this mailing list, I have to manually "mark as read" about 2/3 of
all incoming mails because they don't (from the title) interest me,
and I have to read a few that don't interest me because I couldn't
tell from the title.

Threading also works as well as could be expected, better than
threading in gmail for instance, so I don't see the problem here
either.

> > It's all there, all the time.
>
> Yes, that's part of the problem.

How is that? You mean because all the old stuff gets in the way of the
new? Then you're just using a bad forum software that can't properly
point out the new stuff for you. I agree that not all forums are good,
but there are definitely those that are.

> > It is also  easy to create sub-groups/forums for specific projects,
>
> This is the one semi-useful thing.  Of course, what you end up with is
> another not-so-useful forum.

This is probably the one most useful thing yes. I wouldn't call it
semi-useful though. Just remember all the responses that the HCAR gets
each year of the form "wow how many cool projects are out there that I
had no clue existed". What if all (or many of) those projects were
actually there, on the forums, where everyone knew where to look?

And your last sentence, I just don't understand. "not-so-useful" just
because it's a forum, or did you mean somethine else as well?

/Niklas
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RE: Haskell web forum

Simon Peyton Jones
In reply to this post by Niklas Broberg
Can I suggest that this thread about a Haskell forum migrate to Haskell-café?  Starting on the Haskell mailing list is a good plan -- but discussion belongs in the Café.  Accompanied by caffine!

Simon

| -----Original Message-----
| From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Niklas Broberg
| Sent: 20 September 2006 21:41
| To: Jon Fairbairn
| Cc: [hidden email]
| Subject: Re: [Haskell] Haskell web forum
|
| > More potential than what we have already: <URL:
| > http://dir.gmane.org/gmane.comp.lang.haskell.general >?
|
| Yes. How could we use that to create subforums for particular projects
| or subcommunities?
|
| /Niklas
| _______________________________________________
| Haskell mailing list
| [hidden email]
| http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell
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Re: Haskell web forum

David House
In reply to this post by Bulat Ziganshin-2
On 20/09/06, Bulat Ziganshin <[hidden email]> wrote:
> i definitely think that to rise up Haskell popularity we need now to
> create web forum.

I happen to think this would be a good idea from a newbie's point of
view. For one-off questions (or perhaps two-off), it's far easier to
register on a forum and post a question than it is to:

1) Subscribe to the mailing list
2) Set up a mail filter
3) Post your question
4) Delete annoying cruft which isn't interesting
5) Finally get to the answers to your question.

Also interestingly I think it'd make a good test of maturity for
Haskell web platforms. Is there any Haskell-written forum software out
there?

--
-David House, [hidden email]
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Re: Haskell web forum

Robert Stroud

On 21 Sep 2006, at 08:07, David House wrote:

> On 20/09/06, Bulat Ziganshin <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> i definitely think that to rise up Haskell popularity we need now to
>> create web forum.
>
> I happen to think this would be a good idea from a newbie's point of
> view. For one-off questions (or perhaps two-off), it's far easier to
> register on a forum and post a question than it is to:
>
> 1) Subscribe to the mailing list
> 2) Set up a mail filter
> 3) Post your question
> 4) Delete annoying cruft which isn't interesting
> 5) Finally get to the answers to your question.

Hmm - well, speaking as a newbie who signed up only yesterday to ask  
a technical question, it wasn't that hard, and I got an answer to my  
question before I got all the annoying cruft about web forums... :-)

Personally, I'm not convinced that there's much difference in  
practice between a web-based mail archive and a web forum - there are  
good and bad web forums and mail archives out there, and some forums  
require you to sign up before you can post anything anyway...

Robert



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Re: Haskell web forum

Christian Neumann-2
In reply to this post by David House
Am Thu, 21 Sep 2006 08:07:36 +0100
schrieb "David House" <[hidden email]>:

> I happen to think this would be a good idea from a newbie's point of
> view.
As a real Haskell newbie I must say that this is (IMHO) a very bad idea.
It's annoying to register on yet another forum just to ask one question
(and even more to regularly use it). With your e-mail client, its clear
how to register, how to post, and how to quickly leave the list if you
have enough of it. In the case of a forum, you have to learn from
scratch (yeah, not as hard as understanding monads.. ;) ).
Maybe it would be nice to have a "WebToList-Gateway": you can post your
question with a form on some webpage and it gets delivered to the list.
When someone answers to your question, the gateway app notifies you by
email. _This_ would be comfortable for one-off questions :)
Some also mentioned the benefits of having different topics (sub
forums) in forums. But iirc, mailman does also supports topics per
list?

Christian
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Re: Haskell web forum

Jeremy Shaw
Christian Neumann <christian <at> altfrau.de> writes:

>
> Am Thu, 21 Sep 2006 08:07:36 +0100
> schrieb "David House" <dmhouse <at> gmail.com>:

> As a real Haskell newbie I must say that this is (IMHO) a very bad idea.
> It's annoying to register on yet another forum just to ask one question
> (and even more to regularly use it).

> Maybe it would be nice to have a "WebToList-Gateway": you can post your
> question with a form on some webpage and it gets delivered to the list.

This sounds an awful lot like gmane. gmane takes the existing mailing lists and
adds:

 + nntp access
 + archive searching
 + 2 different web interfaces (one email-like, one blog-like)
 + rss feeds
 + web based posting gateway

As a matter of fact, I am posting this message via the gmane web interface,
just to see how easy or hard it actually is.

This list can be viewed at:

http://dir.gmane.org/gmane.comp.lang.haskell.general

A bunch more haskell lists can be found at:

http://gmane.org/find.php?list=haskell

Perhaps instead of a web forum we simply need to:

 a) make the gmane interface better known
 b) figure out why gmane is not as good as 'real' web forum, and fix it.

It seems that doing a one-off posting to this list via gmane is going to be
very easy -- even easier than signing up for a forum, and remembering/saving a
password. I believe the steps are:

 (1) click on reply
 (2) enter my name, email, and message
 (3) hit submit
 (4) receive an email which I reply to to confirm I really exist.

In my opinion, the current solution is pretty spiffy since you can pick your
favorite access method (email, nntp, web), and still reach everyone via their
favorite access method.

j.


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Re: Re: Haskell web forum

Piotr Kalinowski
Hi

Personally, I prefer e-mail over forums because I never remember to check the latter for new messages. And I do check e-mail quite frequently.

Regards,
--
Intelligence is like a river: the deeper it is, the less noise it makes
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Re: Re: Haskell web forum

Mark T.B. Carroll-2
In reply to this post by Aaron Denney
Aaron Denney <[hidden email]> writes:
(snip)
> And I disagree with you.  Web forums are usenet reinvented poorly.
> It's impossible to keep track of what's new, threading is either poor or
> nonexistent.  Mailing lists with searchable archives work well.  gmane
> provides a nice usenet interface to mailing lists.
(snip)

On this note, there is a request for discussion of a comp.lang.haskell.

See Jeffrey M. Vinocur's "RFD: comp.lang.haskell" in news.groups,
message ID <[hidden email]>, posted October 16th.

Comments are invited from users of the Haskell mailing lists in that
news.groups thread.

-- Mark

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Re: Re: Haskell web forum

Gour-2
On Tue, 2006-10-17 at 16:19 -0400, Mark T.B. Carroll wrote:

> On this note, there is a request for discussion of a comp.lang.haskell.

> Comments are invited from users of the Haskell mailing lists in that
> news.groups thread.

I visited the thread but will reply here...my understanding of original
intention for creating web-forums, was/is to help haskell community to
get alternative to the present situation making it more comfortable for
new users.

otoh, having comp.lang.haskell, imho, just invites more trolls and does
not serve the original purpose, or let's say, what is the advantage of
having comp.lang.haskell over present mailing lists?

There was also initiative in the past to have haskell.org site built
with eg. Drupal to build stronger community, so I don't see how
comp.lang.haskell can help in that matter.

Sincerely,
Gour

p.s. Pls. excuse me for increasing the traffic on [hidden email].



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