How does one get off haskell?

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How does one get off haskell?

Günther Schmidt
Hi list,

I'm facing a really tough problem. About 3 years ago I stopped doing
freelance and quite nicely paid projects in Java, PHP and C#.

Now I'm dire straits, again, and need to get back into the project
market which seems to have picked up again, quite a lot of projects out
there and it looks like I could ask again for decent rates. (I
personally call them compensation because I never ever enjoyed doing
Java etc. but the money was good.)

Anyway the problem is that I am totally reluctant to code in anything
else but haskell. It has always been a problem to me getting up early in
the morning, taking a train to work and coming back in the evening
totally exhausted. But I think I could manage that again, at least for 3
or 6 months and then my bank account will be fine again and I can take
it easy for another year or so.

But this time all this is much harder. I really cannot see myself
writing such huge amounts of code over and over again not doing much,
well you know the story.

BTW this is not meant as a fun post, I'm actually quite serious, ie. I
need money, only way of getting it is doing Java, C# or PHP.

So how does one get off haskell? Are there people in similar situations
that have managed? How did you do it?

Günther

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Re: How does one get off haskell?

Лев Никитин
Become the farmer. The life in village brings advantage for health more.

(I too am serious. :) )

2010/6/17 Günther Schmidt <[hidden email]>:

> Hi list,
>
> I'm facing a really tough problem. About 3 years ago I stopped doing
> freelance and quite nicely paid projects in Java, PHP and C#.
>
> Now I'm dire straits, again, and need to get back into the project market
> which seems to have picked up again, quite a lot of projects out there and
> it looks like I could ask again for decent rates. (I personally call them
> compensation because I never ever enjoyed doing Java etc. but the money was
> good.)
>
> Anyway the problem is that I am totally reluctant to code in anything else
> but haskell. It has always been a problem to me getting up early in the
> morning, taking a train to work and coming back in the evening totally
> exhausted. But I think I could manage that again, at least for 3 or 6 months
> and then my bank account will be fine again and I can take it easy for
> another year or so.
>
> But this time all this is much harder. I really cannot see myself writing
> such huge amounts of code over and over again not doing much, well you know
> the story.
>
> BTW this is not meant as a fun post, I'm actually quite serious, ie. I need
> money, only way of getting it is doing Java, C# or PHP.
>
> So how does one get off haskell? Are there people in similar situations that
> have managed? How did you do it?
>
> Günther
>
> _______________________________________________
> Haskell-Cafe mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
>



--
Никитин Лев.
[hidden email], [hidden email]
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Re: How does one get off haskell?

David Virebayre
In reply to this post by Günther Schmidt
2010/6/17 Günther Schmidt <[hidden email]>:
> Anyway the problem is that I am totally reluctant to code in anything else
> but haskell. It has always been a problem to me getting up early in the

You're not alone.
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Re: How does one get off haskell?

Jean-Denis Koeck
In reply to this post by Günther Schmidt
Maybe you should trying getting on Scala or Clojure projects ? Though they aren't many of them for now :(

2010/6/17 Günther Schmidt <[hidden email]>
Hi list,

I'm facing a really tough problem. About 3 years ago I stopped doing freelance and quite nicely paid projects in Java, PHP and C#.

Now I'm dire straits, again, and need to get back into the project market which seems to have picked up again, quite a lot of projects out there and it looks like I could ask again for decent rates. (I personally call them compensation because I never ever enjoyed doing Java etc. but the money was good.)

Anyway the problem is that I am totally reluctant to code in anything else but haskell. It has always been a problem to me getting up early in the morning, taking a train to work and coming back in the evening totally exhausted. But I think I could manage that again, at least for 3 or 6 months and then my bank account will be fine again and I can take it easy for another year or so.

But this time all this is much harder. I really cannot see myself writing such huge amounts of code over and over again not doing much, well you know the story.

BTW this is not meant as a fun post, I'm actually quite serious, ie. I need money, only way of getting it is doing Java, C# or PHP.

So how does one get off haskell? Are there people in similar situations that have managed? How did you do it?

Günther

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Re: How does one get off haskell?

David Anderson-14
In reply to this post by Günther Schmidt
2010/6/17 Günther Schmidt <[hidden email]>:

> Hi list,
>
> I'm facing a really tough problem. About 3 years ago I stopped doing
> freelance and quite nicely paid projects in Java, PHP and C#.
>
> Now I'm dire straits, again, and need to get back into the project market
> which seems to have picked up again, quite a lot of projects out there and
> it looks like I could ask again for decent rates. (I personally call them
> compensation because I never ever enjoyed doing Java etc. but the money was
> good.)
>
> Anyway the problem is that I am totally reluctant to code in anything else
> but haskell. It has always been a problem to me getting up early in the
> morning, taking a train to work and coming back in the evening totally
> exhausted. But I think I could manage that again, at least for 3 or 6 months
> and then my bank account will be fine again and I can take it easy for
> another year or so.
>
> But this time all this is much harder. I really cannot see myself writing
> such huge amounts of code over and over again not doing much, well you know
> the story.
>
> BTW this is not meant as a fun post, I'm actually quite serious, ie. I need
> money, only way of getting it is doing Java, C# or PHP.
>
> So how does one get off haskell? Are there people in similar situations that
> have managed? How did you do it?

Perhaps Galois is hiring? :-)

- Dave

>
> Günther
>
> _______________________________________________
> Haskell-Cafe mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
>
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Re: How does one get off haskell?

Hector Guilarte
In reply to this post by Günther Schmidt
Haven't tried this, but maybe it can help you... Online freelance jobs search engine, I'ts supposed to be good...
 http://www.donanza.com/

Good Luck $$$,


Hector Guilarte
Enviado desde mi dispositivo movil BlackBerry.

-----Original Message-----
From: Günther Schmidt [hidden email]
Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2010 15:55:15
To: <[hidden email]>
Subject: [Haskell-cafe] How does one get off haskell?

Hi list,

I'm facing a really tough problem. About 3 years ago I stopped doing
freelance and quite nicely paid projects in Java, PHP and C#.

Now I'm dire straits, again, and need to get back into the project
market which seems to have picked up again, quite a lot of projects out
there and it looks like I could ask again for decent rates. (I
personally call them compensation because I never ever enjoyed doing
Java etc. but the money was good.)

Anyway the problem is that I am totally reluctant to code in anything
else but haskell. It has always been a problem to me getting up early in
the morning, taking a train to work and coming back in the evening
totally exhausted. But I think I could manage that again, at least for 3
or 6 months and then my bank account will be fine again and I can take
it easy for another year or so.

But this time all this is much harder. I really cannot see myself
writing such huge amounts of code over and over again not doing much,
well you know the story.

BTW this is not meant as a fun post, I'm actually quite serious, ie. I
need money, only way of getting it is doing Java, C# or PHP.

So how does one get off haskell? Are there people in similar situations
that have managed? How did you do it?

Günther

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Re: How does one get off haskell?

Günther Schmidt
Hi all,

I was afraid of that.

The tenor here is "there is no way to get off haskell" so either do
woodwork or try to get a haskell job.

:(

Günther
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Re: How does one get off haskell?

braver
If you're willing to use "Haskell" as a synonym for FP of sorts, you
can now get cool jobs writing Scala -- e.g. Sony uses it to manage all
of their disk farms; Clojure is awesome, although very different
(dynamic and macro); and Jane Street is always hiring in New York,
London and Tokyo doing OCaml.  The JVM languages are really cool in
the way they can work anywhere Java can, including the Google App
Engine, and there're now startups exploiting that.  F# is truly an
amazing feat, now fully supported by MSFT, so even there you have a
viable and sane alternative to boilerplate.  #scala is full of Haskell
lurkers.  They bring a lambdabot with them to annoy Java people with
what the types of things should be.

But I'd say, with such attitude the best thing to do is to gang up
with a few like-minded warriors and form a startup.  This is what
these folks had done:

http://www.infoq.com/articles/deadline-clojure-appengine

I think this is the best model.
Cheers,
Alexy
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Re: How does one get off haskell?

braver
Another way to be happy is to get a family to support, then any idea
of making a quick pfennig with C# and then luxuriating in Rio with a
laptop full of Haskell will only work if your company goes public! :)

-- Alexy
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Re: How does one get off haskell?

Paul Lotti
In reply to this post by Günther Schmidt
Günther Schmidt <gue.schmidt <at> web.de> writes:


>
> So how does one get off haskell? Are there people in similar situations
> that have managed? How did you do it?
>
> Günther
>

Same feelings here.  I work in a company that uses C++/Java and the best I could
manage was to use Haskell for prototyping and then deliver in Java.  This worked
out twice so far.  The downside is having to translate it later.




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Re: Re: How does one get off haskell?

Edward Z. Yang
Excerpts from Paul Lotti's message of Thu Jun 17 15:33:30 -0400 2010:
> Same feelings here.  I work in a company that uses C++/Java and the best I could
> manage was to use Haskell for prototyping and then deliver in Java.  This worked
> out twice so far.  The downside is having to translate it later.

*Shudders at the though.* Must be a what, x10 size blow-up?
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Re: Re: How does one get off haskell?

Evan Laforge
In reply to this post by Paul Lotti
>> So how does one get off haskell? Are there people in similar situations
>> that have managed? How did you do it?

I used to get annoyed about all the java boilerplate and awkwardness.
But then I learned that if I relax and stop thinking so much about the
aesthetics of what I'm writing, I can just let my fingers go on typing
without having to think too much.  Yes, it would have been shorter and
more graceful in more capable languages, but I would have had to think
more about how to factor things or apply the right abstractions.

Ultimately the problems to be solved are the same, it's just that java
and c++ give you a lot of padding where you're writing boilerplate and
workarounds for not having closures, monadic values, a nice type
system, etc.  It could be relaxing in the same way that playing 3rd
trombone could be: you still get to play technical music every once
and a while, but you also get a lot of downtime to count rests and
listen to the music, or play whole notes.  There is a pleasure in
that, even if it's not the same as when you're in the 1st violin
section.  Music is still being made, problems are still getting
solved.
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Re: Re: How does one get off haskell?

Christopher Done
At CREATE-NET we're hiring Haskellers. If you fancy working in Trento
(Italy) and you have experience, apply here. Try these trivial
questions http://hpaste.org/fastcgi/hpaste.fcgi/view?id=26317 The
question list doesn't indicate expertise but it does filter out
newbies. Don't bother if you struggle with these. Send me your CV and
links to or tarballs of nontrivial (e.g. >500~ LoC) Haskell projects.
Web experience a plus. SCM (Git) experience a plus.

On 17 June 2010 22:27, Evan Laforge <[hidden email]> wrote:

>>> So how does one get off haskell? Are there people in similar situations
>>> that have managed? How did you do it?
>
> I used to get annoyed about all the java boilerplate and awkwardness.
> But then I learned that if I relax and stop thinking so much about the
> aesthetics of what I'm writing, I can just let my fingers go on typing
> without having to think too much.  Yes, it would have been shorter and
> more graceful in more capable languages, but I would have had to think
> more about how to factor things or apply the right abstractions.
>
> Ultimately the problems to be solved are the same, it's just that java
> and c++ give you a lot of padding where you're writing boilerplate and
> workarounds for not having closures, monadic values, a nice type
> system, etc.  It could be relaxing in the same way that playing 3rd
> trombone could be: you still get to play technical music every once
> and a while, but you also get a lot of downtime to count rests and
> listen to the music, or play whole notes.  There is a pleasure in
> that, even if it's not the same as when you're in the 1st violin
> section.  Music is still being made, problems are still getting
> solved.
> _______________________________________________
> Haskell-Cafe mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
>
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Re: How does one get off haskell?

Bugzilla from 1@234.cx
In reply to this post by Evan Laforge
Evan Laforge wrote:

> I used to get annoyed about all the java boilerplate and awkwardness.
> But then I learned that if I relax and stop thinking so much about the
> aesthetics of what I'm writing, I can just let my fingers go on typing
> without having to think too much.

:-) A good Java IDE will write most of the boilerplate, too.  I find the
most annoying thing is not *writing* the boilerplate, it's the fact that
it clutters things up and makes it hard to see what is going on.

> Ultimately the problems to be solved are the same, it's just that java
> and c++ give you a lot of padding where you're writing boilerplate and
> workarounds for not having closures, monadic values, a nice type
> system, etc.

One thing I'm curious about is Haskell versus Python or Ruby.  Code in
those languages is, IMO, prone to type related bugs because there is no
compile-time checking.  On the other hand, I would expect the 'density'
of the code to be similar to Haskell.  You can do a lot of the same
things, although they support an OO programming style too.

Interestingly, the Shootout benchmarks show Haskell doing quite poorly
on code size.  I suspect that is because a lot of effort has gone into
making those programs fast at the expense of everything else, though.

Pete

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Re: Re: How does one get off haskell?

Ivan Lazar Miljenovic
Pete Chown <[hidden email]> writes:
>
> One thing I'm curious about is Haskell versus Python or Ruby.  Code in
> those languages is, IMO, prone to type related bugs because there is
> no compile-time checking.  On the other hand, I would expect the
> density' of the code to be similar to Haskell.  You can do a lot of
> the same things, although they support an OO programming style too.

Haven't you heard?  Enough unit tests give you almost the same security
as a good static type system at the expense of more code!

Uh, wait, why is that an advantage again? :p

--
Ivan Lazar Miljenovic
[hidden email]
IvanMiljenovic.wordpress.com
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Re: Re: How does one get off haskell?

Daniel Fischer-4
On Friday 18 June 2010 12:31:26, Ivan Lazar Miljenovic wrote:

> Pete Chown <[hidden email]> writes:
> > One thing I'm curious about is Haskell versus Python or Ruby.  Code in
> > those languages is, IMO, prone to type related bugs because there is
> > no compile-time checking.  On the other hand, I would expect the
> > density' of the code to be similar to Haskell.  You can do a lot of
> > the same things, although they support an OO programming style too.
>
> Haven't you heard?  Enough unit tests give you almost the same security
> as a good static type system at the expense of more code!
>
> Uh, wait, why is that an advantage again? :p

Duh, because it's much faster to develop in a dynamically typed language.
Writing out all those type signatures costs time. Much more time than
writing a few dozen unit tests per function, right?
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Re: Re: How does one get off haskell?

Ivan Lazar Miljenovic
Daniel Fischer <[hidden email]> writes:

> On Friday 18 June 2010 12:31:26, Ivan Lazar Miljenovic wrote:
>> Pete Chown <[hidden email]> writes:
>> > One thing I'm curious about is Haskell versus Python or Ruby.  Code in
>> > those languages is, IMO, prone to type related bugs because there is
>> > no compile-time checking.  On the other hand, I would expect the
>> > density' of the code to be similar to Haskell.  You can do a lot of
>> > the same things, although they support an OO programming style too.
>>
>> Haven't you heard?  Enough unit tests give you almost the same security
>> as a good static type system at the expense of more code!
>>
>> Uh, wait, why is that an advantage again? :p
>
> Duh, because it's much faster to develop in a dynamically typed language.
> Writing out all those type signatures costs time. Much more time than
> writing a few dozen unit tests per function, right?

Of course!  And adding in documentation saying what kind of values are
expected is also just as trivial!

--
Ivan Lazar Miljenovic
[hidden email]
IvanMiljenovic.wordpress.com
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Re: Re: How does one get off haskell?

wren ng thornton
In reply to this post by Edward Z. Yang
Edward Z. Yang wrote:
> Excerpts from Paul Lotti's message of Thu Jun 17 15:33:30 -0400 2010:
>> Same feelings here.  I work in a company that uses C++/Java and the best I could
>> manage was to use Haskell for prototyping and then deliver in Java.  This worked
>> out twice so far.  The downside is having to translate it later.
>
> *Shudders at the though.* Must be a what, x10 size blow-up?

I've done that too. It works fairly well for certain kinds of
programs/problems, but you have to be careful about your abstractions.

For instance, Java Generics are no substitute for real parametric
polymorphism. They only work for the simplest kind of container/element
polymorphism, interact poorly (i.e., not at all) with subclassing, and
explode with many of the higher-order tricks common in idiomatic
Haskell. Any sort of higher-order programming (HOFs, point-free style,
CPS, parametricity,...) rarely translates well--- especially if you want
to avoid code bloat and have anything resembling idiomatic Java. Though
sometimes defunctionalization[1] can help.

The code blow up varies. 10x is on the good side of things and indicates
a good match of abstractions. 20x or 30x is more common I think. But if
you're relying on any libraries or fancy datastructures, you'll be lucky
not to have to reimplement everything...


[1]
http://blog.plover.com/prog/defunctionalization.html
http://www.brics.dk/RS/01/23/
http://cristal.inria.fr/~fpottier/publis/fpottier-gauthier-popl04.pdf

--
Live well,
~wren
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Re: Re: How does one get off haskell?

Alberto G. Corona
The fast write-only way:
- generate C code with JHC (no haskell runtime)
- use a C-to-java converter , for example, c2j  (http://www.novosoft-us.com)

At least you can laugh at the  generated code.
anyone  tried that?

Alberto

2010/6/18 wren ng thornton <[hidden email]>:

> Edward Z. Yang wrote:
>>
>> Excerpts from Paul Lotti's message of Thu Jun 17 15:33:30 -0400 2010:
>>>
>>> Same feelings here.  I work in a company that uses C++/Java and the best
>>> I could
>>> manage was to use Haskell for prototyping and then deliver in Java.  This
>>> worked
>>> out twice so far.  The downside is having to translate it later.
>>
>> *Shudders at the though.* Must be a what, x10 size blow-up?
>
> I've done that too. It works fairly well for certain kinds of
> programs/problems, but you have to be careful about your abstractions.
>
> For instance, Java Generics are no substitute for real parametric
> polymorphism. They only work for the simplest kind of container/element
> polymorphism, interact poorly (i.e., not at all) with subclassing, and
> explode with many of the higher-order tricks common in idiomatic Haskell.
> Any sort of higher-order programming (HOFs, point-free style, CPS,
> parametricity,...) rarely translates well--- especially if you want to avoid
> code bloat and have anything resembling idiomatic Java. Though sometimes
> defunctionalization[1] can help.
>
> The code blow up varies. 10x is on the good side of things and indicates a
> good match of abstractions. 20x or 30x is more common I think. But if you're
> relying on any libraries or fancy datastructures, you'll be lucky not to
> have to reimplement everything...
>
>
> [1]
> http://blog.plover.com/prog/defunctionalization.html
> http://www.brics.dk/RS/01/23/
> http://cristal.inria.fr/~fpottier/publis/fpottier-gauthier-popl04.pdf
>
> --
> Live well,
> ~wren
> _______________________________________________
> Haskell-Cafe mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
>
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Re: Re: How does one get off haskell?

Ivan Lazar Miljenovic
"Alberto G. Corona " <[hidden email]> writes:

> The fast write-only way:
> - generate C code with JHC (no haskell runtime)
> - use a C-to-java converter , for example, c2j  (http://www.novosoft-us.com)
>
> At least you can laugh at the  generated code.

Laugh?  Really?  Aren't you more likely to cry in pain/horror?

--
Ivan Lazar Miljenovic
[hidden email]
IvanMiljenovic.wordpress.com
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