How many Haskell programmers are there?

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How many Haskell programmers are there?

Johan Larson
Obviously this is a very fuzzy question. But what's the credible range
of answers?

Here's one: http://steve-yegge.blogspot.ca/2010/12/haskell-researchers-announce-discovery.html

38

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Re: How many Haskell programmers are there?

Alexander Berntsen
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On 20/07/14 00:17, Johan Larson wrote:
> Obviously this is a very fuzzy question. But what's the credible range
> of answers?
>
> Here's one:
> http://steve-yegge.blogspot.ca/2010/12/haskell-researchers-announce-discovery.html
>
> 38
 
Isn't this research in stark contrast with our motto? I'm not sure I am
comfortable with it.

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Re: How many Haskell programmers are there?

Henk-Jan van Tuyl
In reply to this post by Johan Larson
On Sun, 20 Jul 2014 00:17:41 +0200, Johan Larson
<[hidden email]> wrote:

> Obviously this is a very fuzzy question. But what's the credible range
> of answers?

The tags page of stackoverflow[0] says (when hovering over the rectangle
with the word Haskell) that there are 5.6k followers. Of course, there is
no guarantee that the followers are Haskell programmers, and it is certain
that not all Haskell programmers are followers (I am a Haskell programmer,
but not a follower).

Can someone tell us, how many subscriptions there are for the Haskell-Café
mailing list?

Regards,
Henk-Jan van Tuyl


[0] http://stackoverflow.com/tags


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Re: How many Haskell programmers are there?

Roman Cheplyaka-2
* Henk-Jan van Tuyl <[hidden email]> [2014-07-20 13:10:31+0200]

> On Sun, 20 Jul 2014 00:17:41 +0200, Johan Larson
> <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> >Obviously this is a very fuzzy question. But what's the credible range
> >of answers?
>
> The tags page of stackoverflow[0] says (when hovering over the rectangle
> with the word Haskell) that there are 5.6k followers. Of course, there is
> no guarantee that the followers are Haskell programmers, and it is certain
> that not all Haskell programmers are followers (I am a Haskell programmer,
> but not a follower).
Other numbers:

* 16k reddit.com/r/haskell followers
* 2k registered users at haskellers.com
* 30k linkedin profiles are found for the "Haskell" query, presumably because
  people mention Haskell as their skill

(the same caveats apply).

Thus my feeling is that the number of people who are interested in Haskell and
know some basics falls within 10k-100k range; the number of people who use
Haskell professionally (including academy and industry) is probably between 1k
and 10k.

Roman

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Re: How many Haskell programmers are there?

Joachim Breitner-2
Hi,

more numbers: Of the roughly 150k machines taking part in the Debian
popularity contest, 4936 (3%) have GHC installed, and but only 898 (0.5%
) use it: https://qa.debian.org/popcon.php?package=ghc

And that might include some xmonad users that you wouldn’t necessary
consider Haskell programmers.

Greetings,
Joachim





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Re: How many Haskell programmers are there?

Xiaojun "Phil" Hu
On Sun, Jul 20, 2014 at 06:05:28PM +0200, Joachim Breitner wrote:
> Hi,
>
> more numbers: Of the roughly 150k machines taking part in the Debian
> popularity contest, 4936 (3%) have GHC installed, and but only 898 (0.5%
> ) use it: https://qa.debian.org/popcon.php?package=ghc
>
> And that might include some xmonad users that you wouldn’t necessary
> consider Haskell programmers.

Users of xmonad and pandoc certainly add up to that number.
Cabal-install would be a better reference than GHC, with 1467 (0.8%) users
have haskell-platform installed:
https://qa.debian.org/popcon.php?package=haskell-platform

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Re: How many Haskell programmers are there?

Mike Izbicki
The lens package on hackage has almost 63000 downloads.  I think this
is probably a good approximation to the number of serious haskell
*installations* because even people who don't like lens probably have
downloaded packages that depend on it.  I suspect that very few
serious haskell programmers don't have lens installed.  (Packages that
ship with the platform, OTOH, won't get counted enough.)

Of course, this is not a good approximation for the number of haskell
*programmers* because many people will have multiple installs going.
For example, I have 4 installations (3 work + my laptop).  It's
probably best to think of this number as an upper bound.

If we assume that haskellers have on average two installations, then
we would come up with about 30000 haskellers.

On Sun, Jul 20, 2014 at 9:49 PM, Phil Xiaojun Hu <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On Sun, Jul 20, 2014 at 06:05:28PM +0200, Joachim Breitner wrote:
>> Hi,
>>
>> more numbers: Of the roughly 150k machines taking part in the Debian
>> popularity contest, 4936 (3%) have GHC installed, and but only 898 (0.5%
>> ) use it: https://qa.debian.org/popcon.php?package=ghc
>>
>> And that might include some xmonad users that you wouldn't necessary
>> consider Haskell programmers.
>
> Users of xmonad and pandoc certainly add up to that number.
> Cabal-install would be a better reference than GHC, with 1467 (0.8%) users
> have haskell-platform installed:
> https://qa.debian.org/popcon.php?package=haskell-platform
>
> ---
> Phil Xiaojun Hu
>
> _______________________________________________
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> [hidden email]
> http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
>
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Re: How many Haskell programmers are there?

Chris Wong-2
> Of course, this is not a good approximation for the number of haskell
> *programmers* because many people will have multiple installs going.
> For example, I have 4 installations (3 work + my laptop).  It's
> probably best to think of this number as an upper bound.

Also, services like Travis will download a fresh set of dependencies
on every commit.
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Re: How many Haskell programmers are there?

Mike Izbicki
I was assuming hackage's downloads showed unique ips.  That seems much
more useful at least.  If not, the lens method would also be double
counting every time someone created a sandbox or upgraded ghc.

On Mon, Jul 21, 2014 at 12:41 AM, Chris Wong <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> Of course, this is not a good approximation for the number of haskell
>> *programmers* because many people will have multiple installs going.
>> For example, I have 4 installations (3 work + my laptop).  It's
>> probably best to think of this number as an upper bound.
>
> Also, services like Travis will download a fresh set of dependencies
> on every commit.
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Re: How many Haskell programmers are there?

Roman Cheplyaka-2
cabal caches package tarballs under ~/.cabal/packages/hackage.haskell.org/

* Mike Izbicki <[hidden email]> [2014-07-21 09:23:52-0700]

> I was assuming hackage's downloads showed unique ips.  That seems much
> more useful at least.  If not, the lens method would also be double
> counting every time someone created a sandbox or upgraded ghc.
>
> On Mon, Jul 21, 2014 at 12:41 AM, Chris Wong <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >> Of course, this is not a good approximation for the number of haskell
> >> *programmers* because many people will have multiple installs going.
> >> For example, I have 4 installations (3 work + my laptop).  It's
> >> probably best to think of this number as an upper bound.
> >
> > Also, services like Travis will download a fresh set of dependencies
> > on every commit.
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Re: How many Haskell programmers are there?

Tobias Dammers
In reply to this post by Xiaojun "Phil" Hu

Pandoc wouldn't affect popcon though, since it doesn't depend on ghc; it's a binary package, and iirc only depends on libgmp at runtime.

On Jul 21, 2014 6:49 AM, "Phil Xiaojun Hu" <[hidden email]> wrote:
On Sun, Jul 20, 2014 at 06:05:28PM +0200, Joachim Breitner wrote:
> Hi,
>
> more numbers: Of the roughly 150k machines taking part in the Debian
> popularity contest, 4936 (3%) have GHC installed, and but only 898 (0.5%
> ) use it: https://qa.debian.org/popcon.php?package=ghc
>
> And that might include some xmonad users that you wouldn’t necessary
> consider Haskell programmers.

Users of xmonad and pandoc certainly add up to that number.
Cabal-install would be a better reference than GHC, with 1467 (0.8%) users
have haskell-platform installed:
https://qa.debian.org/popcon.php?package=haskell-platform

---
Phil Xiaojun Hu

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Re: How many Haskell programmers are there?

Malcolm Wallace-2
In reply to this post by Mike Izbicki

On 21 Jul 2014, at 06:27, Mike Izbicki wrote:

> The lens package on hackage has almost 63000 downloads.  I think this
> is probably a good approximation to the number of serious haskell
> *installations* because even people who don't like lens probably have
> downloaded packages that depend on it.  I suspect that very few
> serious haskell programmers don't have lens installed.

As with any large commercial organisation, we are not keen on our users each downloading the same software from external sites.  We decide which Haskell packages will form part of our blessed install, and re-host them internally.

Nevertheless, I can confidently say that none of the official Haskell installations we use at work has the lens package installed.  We might not count as "serious" Haskell users though, since we only have about 300 kLoC.  (Separately, our own internal Haskell dialect has > 1.5M LoC, but does not use the lens package either - although other forms of lens-like stuff are in heavy use.)

I think there are no good proxy metrics for counting programmers, nor even setting upper bounds.  There are just too many ways our activity can be hidden or disguised by innocent performance-optimisation, like internal caching.

Regards,
    Malcolm
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Re: How many Haskell programmers are there?

Johan Larson
Are there many really large users of Haskell, organizations that are
likely to have the sort of shared setups you describe?

My impression is that most Haskell adoption has been by fairly small
groups, either working independently or going their own way within
larger organizations.

On Wed, Jul 23, 2014 at 6:57 AM, Malcolm Wallace <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> On 21 Jul 2014, at 06:27, Mike Izbicki wrote:
>
>> The lens package on hackage has almost 63000 downloads.  I think this
>> is probably a good approximation to the number of serious haskell
>> *installations* because even people who don't like lens probably have
>> downloaded packages that depend on it.  I suspect that very few
>> serious haskell programmers don't have lens installed.
>
> As with any large commercial organisation, we are not keen on our users each downloading the same software from external sites.  We decide which Haskell packages will form part of our blessed install, and re-host them internally.
>
> Nevertheless, I can confidently say that none of the official Haskell installations we use at work has the lens package installed.  We might not count as "serious" Haskell users though, since we only have about 300 kLoC.  (Separately, our own internal Haskell dialect has > 1.5M LoC, but does not use the lens package either - although other forms of lens-like stuff are in heavy use.)
>
> I think there are no good proxy metrics for counting programmers, nor even setting upper bounds.  There are just too many ways our activity can be hidden or disguised by innocent performance-optimisation, like internal caching.
>
> Regards,
>     Malcolm
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Re: How many Haskell programmers are there?

Vincent Hanquez

On 23/07/2014 07:49, Johan Larson wrote:
> Are there many really large users of Haskell, organizations that are
> likely to have the sort of shared setups you describe?
Yes, and many small users also have this setup too.

Not only it's useful for caching (for Hackage BW, but also for the users
BW), this is very important for security (Hackage is compromised,
someone upload a package that contains holes or malware, etc) and
reliability (Hackage is down).

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