How to install GhC on a Mac without registering?

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How to install GhC on a Mac without registering?

John D. Ramsdell-3
I rarely use a Mac because it is too cute, but I bought one for my
wife.  I'd like to install GHC on her Mac just to test Haskell
Platform and cabal install.  (I rarely use Windows too, but testing
GHC & cabal install is completely painless.)   To do a quick test, do
I really have to register as an Apple developer, or is there a way to
test the platform anonymously?

Someone who some times worries about privacy,

John

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Re: How to install GhC on a Mac without registering?

Judah Jacobson
Hi John,

You should be able to install the Apple Developer Tools directly from
one of the software installation DVDs that come with the Mac.  If
you're not downloading the tools from online, you shouldn't need to
register.

Best,
-Judah

On Fri, Jun 3, 2011 at 1:03 PM, John D. Ramsdell <[hidden email]> wrote:

> I rarely use a Mac because it is too cute, but I bought one for my
> wife.  I'd like to install GHC on her Mac just to test Haskell
> Platform and cabal install.  (I rarely use Windows too, but testing
> GHC & cabal install is completely painless.)   To do a quick test, do
> I really have to register as an Apple developer, or is there a way to
> test the platform anonymously?
>
> Someone who some times worries about privacy,
>
> John
>
> _______________________________________________
> Haskell-Cafe mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
>

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Re: How to install GhC on a Mac without registering?

Daniel Peebles
I thought Apple had stopped bundling the dev tools with installation DVDs?

On Fri, Jun 3, 2011 at 4:32 PM, Judah Jacobson <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hi John,

You should be able to install the Apple Developer Tools directly from
one of the software installation DVDs that come with the Mac.  If
you're not downloading the tools from online, you shouldn't need to
register.

Best,
-Judah

On Fri, Jun 3, 2011 at 1:03 PM, John D. Ramsdell <[hidden email]> wrote:
> I rarely use a Mac because it is too cute, but I bought one for my
> wife.  I'd like to install GHC on her Mac just to test Haskell
> Platform and cabal install.  (I rarely use Windows too, but testing
> GHC & cabal install is completely painless.)   To do a quick test, do
> I really have to register as an Apple developer, or is there a way to
> test the platform anonymously?
>
> Someone who some times worries about privacy,
>
> John
>
> _______________________________________________
> Haskell-Cafe mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
>

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Re: How to install GhC on a Mac without registering?

Nathan Howell-2
In reply to this post by John D. Ramsdell-3
XCode 4 is for sale in the App Store for $5. You do need an account, but not a developer account... so it may be a bit more palatable.

On Fri, Jun 3, 2011 at 1:03 PM, John D. Ramsdell <[hidden email]> wrote:
I rarely use a Mac because it is too cute, but I bought one for my
wife.  I'd like to install GHC on her Mac just to test Haskell
Platform and cabal install.  (I rarely use Windows too, but testing
GHC & cabal install is completely painless.)   To do a quick test, do
I really have to register as an Apple developer, or is there a way to
test the platform anonymously?

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Re: How to install GhC on a Mac without registering?

Donn Cave-4
Quoth Daniel Peebles <[hidden email]>,
> I thought Apple had stopped bundling the dev tools with installation DVDs?

Do you have an install DVD with no Xcode on it?  I have it on a
10.6 DVD, when would this have happened (or stopped happening)?

Quoth Nathan Howell <[hidden email]>,

> XCode 4 is for sale in the App Store for $5. You do need an account, but not
> a developer account... so it may be a bit more palatable.

But you don't need Xcode 4, do you?  The Xcode 3 that comes with
the install DVD will work fine!

The text on the GHC download page should provide abundant clues to
the process and requirements.  I think it makes sense to believe
what the port maintainer says there, for starters anyway.

        Donn

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Re: How to install GhC on a Mac without registering?

John D. Ramsdell-3
> But you don't need Xcode 4, do you?  The Xcode 3 that comes with
> the install DVD will work fine!

I'm still looking for the install DVD that my wife has carefully put
aside for "safe keeping".  All-in-all, casual use of Haskell seems
much easier on Linux and Windows.

John

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Re: How to install GhC on a Mac without registering?

Gregory Collins-3
$5 for XCode is annoying, but apparently Apple "had" to start charging
for it because of Sarbanes-Oxley and the way they set up their
"generally accepted accounting principles".

G

On Sun, Jun 5, 2011 at 9:25 PM, John D. Ramsdell <[hidden email]> wrote:

>> But you don't need Xcode 4, do you?  The Xcode 3 that comes with
>> the install DVD will work fine!
>
> I'm still looking for the install DVD that my wife has carefully put
> aside for "safe keeping".  All-in-all, casual use of Haskell seems
> much easier on Linux and Windows.
>
> John
>
> _______________________________________________
> Haskell-Cafe mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
>



--
Gregory Collins <[hidden email]>

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Re: How to install GhC on a Mac without registering?

Chris Smith-31
On Sun, 2011-06-05 at 21:58 +0200, Gregory Collins wrote:
> $5 for XCode is annoying, but apparently Apple "had" to start charging
> for it because of Sarbanes-Oxley and the way they set up their
> "generally accepted accounting principles".

That's interesting... whatever the reason, though, I concur that using
Haskell seems much easier on Linux and Windows.  I had to abandon a plan
to introduce Haskell in a class I taught this past semester because of
issues with getting it installed on the Macintosh laptops that some of
the students had.  It's very unfortunate that Haskell on Mac requires
software which can neither be bundled in the install kit nor downloaded
freely from elsewhere.

The part of this that is actually needed is the GCC build system, right?
Can't that be bundled on its own in a freely downloadable location?

Spoken as a non Mac user...

--
Chris Smith



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Re: How to install GhC on a Mac without registering?

Donn Cave-4
Quoth Chris Smith <[hidden email]>,

> That's interesting... whatever the reason, though, I concur that using
> Haskell seems much easier on Linux and Windows.  I had to abandon a plan
> to introduce Haskell in a class I taught this past semester because of
> issues with getting it installed on the Macintosh laptops that some of
> the students had.  It's very unfortunate that Haskell on Mac requires
> software which can neither be bundled in the install kit nor downloaded
> freely from elsewhere.
>
> The part of this that is actually needed is the GCC build system, right?
> Can't that be bundled on its own in a freely downloadable location?
>
> Spoken as a non Mac user...

Exactly.  If you don't use MacOS, let alone develop on it, I guess
it's possible that this looks like an formidable obstacle, but then
wouldn't that pose some limits to how much you're going to be able
to enjoy GHC anyway?

I might be missing something here, since I have never really gotten
into the Darwin ports thing, but it seems to me like the "real" issues
confronting Haskell developers on MacOS have to do with access to the
Cocoa etc. APIs, and in view of that it seems possibly sort of suicidal
to provide an install option that more or less guarantees that no solution
to that problem will work (because the free gcc package won't include
Cocoa.)

        Donn

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Re: How to install GhC on a Mac without registering?

Chris Smith-31
On Sun, 2011-06-05 at 17:35 -0700, Donn Cave wrote:
> Exactly.  If you don't use MacOS, let alone develop on it, I guess
> it's possible that this looks like an formidable obstacle, but then
> wouldn't that pose some limits to how much you're going to be able
> to enjoy GHC anyway?

Well, I explained my motivation... my students in this class are 12 to
13 years old, and those who have Macs have very little knowledge of how
to install XCode on them.  I don't use a Mac, and don't have the install
disks...  I'm honestly not sure if they do or not.  (I certainly don't
keep install disks around for *any* other software I use, so it's hard
for me to imagine people happening to still have the disks that came
with their computers; don't they normally get tossed out with the
cardboard boxes?  Maybe Mac users are different...)

This is a huge issue for me.  I suppose if no one has their OS disk and
it comes to that, I'll pay a bunch of 5 dollar fees out of pocket to buy
those students XCode 4 (hopefully at least *that* is downloadable), but
it won't be a pleasant choice to fork over a good chunk of money to
Apple for the use of free software that they didn't develop.

--
Chris


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Re: How to install GhC on a Mac without registering?

Malcolm Wallace-2
> it won't be a pleasant choice to fork over a good chunk of money to
> Apple for the use of free software that they didn't develop.

Whilst I acknowledge your painful situation, I'd like to rebut the idea that Apple stole someone else's free software and are selling it on.  In fact, Apple developed, or paid for development of, quite a chunk of gcc: the objective-C front end and LLVM back end at least.

In paying for XCode 4, you are getting a lot of proprietary code in addition to gcc.

However, XCode 3 remains free to download, if you are a registered Apple developer.  Registration is completely free of charge:
    http://developer.apple.com/programs/register/

You may find other links that make registration appear to cost $99 - but those are for the "iOS" or "Mac" developer programs, not the "Apple" developer program.  The ones that charge money enable the right to publish software in the App Stores, which you do not need.

I think you can download the free version of the XCode 3 installer, burn it to a DVD, and pass the DVD round your students.

Regards,
    Malcolm

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Re: How to install GhC on a Mac without registering?

Yitzchak Gale
In reply to this post by Chris Smith-31
Chris Smith wrote:
>  I had to abandon a plan
> to introduce Haskell in a class I taught this past semester
> [12 to 13 years old] because of issues with getting it
> installed on the Macintosh laptops that some of
> the students had.

Truth is, you obviously don't need support for FFI development
in that kind of situation. Hugs used to fill this niche. Now that Hugs
isn't so well supported anymore, there is a void to be filled.

On the other hand, Mark Lentczner has been doing a great job
lately with the Haskell Platform installer for the Mac. So
even though the full power of GHC isn't needed here,
it is becoming really easy to get Haskell installed and working
on a Mac in seconds. Apart from the need for XCode, which seems
to be the last remaining issue.

For now, at least, Malcolm's idea of an XCode 3 DVD seems to
be a workaround. We'll see what happens with Lion though...

Regards,
Yitz

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Re: How to install GhC on a Mac without registering?

Richard A. O'Keefe
In reply to this post by Chris Smith-31

On 6/06/2011, at 8:11 AM, Chris Smith wrote:
> That's interesting... whatever the reason, though, I concur that using
> Haskell seems much easier on Linux and Windows.  I had to abandon a plan
> to introduce Haskell in a class I taught this past semester because of
> issues with getting it installed on the Macintosh laptops that some of
> the students had.

You can always
(1) Install VirtualBox -- it's free.
(2) Set up an Ubuntu VM inside VirtualBox -- Ubuntu is also free.
(3) Install Haskell in Ubuntu.

I've done exactly that on the Mac laptop I use.
I also have Haskell running under Mac OS with no special problems.

>  It's very unfortunate that Haskell on Mac requires
> software which can neither be bundled in the install kit nor downloaded
> freely from elsewhere.

Note that the price for XCode applies to *XCode*.
It's not a price for *GCC*.
Having XCode, I was about to download GCC 4.5, build it,
and install it in my own ~/local directory.
Presumably, having built it, I could have copied it somewhere else.


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Re: How to install GhC on a Mac without registering?

Lyndon Maydwell
I would be fantastic if XCode wasn't a dependency. As well as the
inconvenience it also weighs in at around 5G (IIRC) of space which is
still somewhat significant.

Not to detract at all from the work of the wonderful GHC and Haskell
Platform contributors in any way. For me it would just make it that
much easier to convince mac-using friends to give Haskell a try.

On Mon, Jun 6, 2011 at 4:49 PM, Richard O'Keefe <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> On 6/06/2011, at 8:11 AM, Chris Smith wrote:
>> That's interesting... whatever the reason, though, I concur that using
>> Haskell seems much easier on Linux and Windows.  I had to abandon a plan
>> to introduce Haskell in a class I taught this past semester because of
>> issues with getting it installed on the Macintosh laptops that some of
>> the students had.
>
> You can always
> (1) Install VirtualBox -- it's free.
> (2) Set up an Ubuntu VM inside VirtualBox -- Ubuntu is also free.
> (3) Install Haskell in Ubuntu.
>
> I've done exactly that on the Mac laptop I use.
> I also have Haskell running under Mac OS with no special problems.
>
>>  It's very unfortunate that Haskell on Mac requires
>> software which can neither be bundled in the install kit nor downloaded
>> freely from elsewhere.
>
> Note that the price for XCode applies to *XCode*.
> It's not a price for *GCC*.
> Having XCode, I was about to download GCC 4.5, build it,
> and install it in my own ~/local directory.
> Presumably, having built it, I could have copied it somewhere else.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
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Re: How to install GhC on a Mac without registering?

Chris Smith-31
In reply to this post by Malcolm Wallace-2
On Mon, 2011-06-06 at 08:51 +0100, Malcolm Wallace wrote:
> In paying for XCode 4, you are getting a lot of proprietary code in addition to gcc.

True... but not *using* it.

> However, XCode 3 remains free to download, if you are a registered Apple developer.  Registration is completely free of charge:
>     http://developer.apple.com/programs/register/

Ah, thank you!  I was indeed under the impression that the registration
needed here was the same one that costs $99.  It's good to know that's
not true, and practically speaking, this at least makes it possible to
get things set up on Macs for my class.

--
Chris Smith



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Re: How to install GhC on a Mac without registering?

Malcolm Wallace-2
In reply to this post by Lyndon Maydwell

On 6 Jun 2011, at 13:49, Lyndon Maydwell wrote:

> I would be fantastic if XCode wasn't a dependency.  ...
>
> Not to detract at all from the work of the wonderful GHC and Haskell
> Platform contributors in any way. For me it would just make it that
> much easier to convince mac-using friends to give Haskell a try.

The ghc team already bundle a copy of gcc in their Windows distribution, precisely because it can be fiddly to get a working copy of gcc for that platform otherwise.  I wonder if they would consider the possibility of shipping gcc on Mac too?  (There may be good reasons not to do that, but let's have the discussion.)

Regards,
    Malcolm

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Re: How to install GhC on a Mac without registering?

Brandon Moore-2
In reply to this post by Chris Smith-31
> From: Chris Smith <[hidden email]> June 6, 2011 8:58 AM

>
> On Mon, 2011-06-06 at 08:51 +0100, Malcolm Wallace wrote:
>>  In paying for XCode 4, you are getting a lot of proprietary code in
> addition to gcc.
>
> True... but not *using* it.
>
>>  However, XCode 3 remains free to download, if you are a registered Apple
> developer.  Registration is completely free of charge:
>>      http://developer.apple.com/programs/register/
>
> Ah, thank you!  I was indeed under the impression that the registration
> needed here was the same one that costs $99.  It's good to know that's
> not true, and practically speaking, this at least makes it possible to
> get things set up on Macs for my class.

There do seem to be source releases for the open source components

http://www.opensource.apple.com/release/developer-tools-40/

Maybe someone interested could build a self-contained gcc to include with
the Haskell Platform, as on Windows.

Neither owning nor regularly using a Mac, I just looked into this after seeing
the surprising claim that charging for Xcode 4 was motivated by accounting
requirements.

Brandon


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Re: How to install GhC on a Mac without registering?

Daniel Peebles
In reply to this post by Malcolm Wallace-2
Isn't gcc just used for its assembler and object file creation, these days, now that via-C is deprecated? Or are there other parts of it that are needed?

On Mon, Jun 6, 2011 at 10:47 AM, Malcolm Wallace <[hidden email]> wrote:

On 6 Jun 2011, at 13:49, Lyndon Maydwell wrote:

> I would be fantastic if XCode wasn't a dependency.  ...
>
> Not to detract at all from the work of the wonderful GHC and Haskell
> Platform contributors in any way. For me it would just make it that
> much easier to convince mac-using friends to give Haskell a try.

The ghc team already bundle a copy of gcc in their Windows distribution, precisely because it can be fiddly to get a working copy of gcc for that platform otherwise.  I wonder if they would consider the possibility of shipping gcc on Mac too?  (There may be good reasons not to do that, but let's have the discussion.)

Regards,
   Malcolm

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Re: How to install GhC on a Mac without registering?

Simon Marlow-7
On 06/06/11 15:57, Daniel Peebles wrote:
> Isn't gcc just used for its assembler and object file creation, these
> days, now that via-C is deprecated? Or are there other parts of it that
> are needed?

The C compiler is needed to support foreign export and foreign import
"wrapper", and we also generate C fragments for some initialisation code
now (in 7.2.1) as part of some changes I made to the way module
initialisation is done.  The C compiler is also used to support
-rtsopts, which requires compiling a small C file and linking it into
the binary.

It's sometimes handy to be able to compile C files with GHC, if you're
not using Cabal.

Cheers,
        Simon


> On Mon, Jun 6, 2011 at 10:47 AM, Malcolm Wallace <[hidden email]
> <mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote:
>
>
>     On 6 Jun 2011, at 13:49, Lyndon Maydwell wrote:
>
>      > I would be fantastic if XCode wasn't a dependency.  ...
>      >
>      > Not to detract at all from the work of the wonderful GHC and Haskell
>      > Platform contributors in any way. For me it would just make it that
>      > much easier to convince mac-using friends to give Haskell a try.
>
>     The ghc team already bundle a copy of gcc in their Windows
>     distribution, precisely because it can be fiddly to get a working
>     copy of gcc for that platform otherwise.  I wonder if they would
>     consider the possibility of shipping gcc on Mac too?  (There may be
>     good reasons not to do that, but let's have the discussion.)
>
>     Regards,
>         Malcolm
>
>     _______________________________________________
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>
>
>
>
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Re: How to install GhC on a Mac without registering?

Sean Leather
In reply to this post by Malcolm Wallace-2

On Mon, Jun 6, 2011 at 16:47, Malcolm Wallace wrote:
The ghc team already bundle a copy of gcc in their Windows distribution, precisely because it can be fiddly to get a working copy of gcc for that platform otherwise.  I wonder if they would consider the possibility of shipping gcc on Mac too?  (There may be good reasons not to do that, but let's have the discussion.)

I would be in favor of this -- assuming it didn't create new problems -- especially if it meant the latest GHC installer could be used on older versions of Mac OS X. The Windows installer still works for Windows 2000, but the Mac installer requires the Snow Leopard.

Regards,
Sean

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