Ian leaving and the glorious future

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Ian leaving and the glorious future

Simon Peyton Jones
Dear ghc-dev friends,

Ian has now officially left Well Typed, so there now isn't anyone whose day job it is to respond to GHC bug mail, Trac tickets etc.  Well Typed are hiring, and there will be someone new in due course, but until then there will be a hiatus.

In general, this is part of what I see as a long, slow movement: as time goes on, GHC is becoming more and more public property.  Simon M's move to Facebook is another part of that movement.  Increasingly, GHC is going to rely more on the community to maintain and develop it, and less on GHC HQ.  And when I say "the community", I think firstly of the ghc-devs list :-).

If the community is to be expected to do more of the work, they should also get more influence about decisions.  I don't think there's any rush, but I'm open to forming a GHC steering committee (if you would like) to broaden the sense of "ownership".

Don't worry: I'm not bowing out!  But I am very much trying to encourage you to feel that GHC is *your* compiler, not just SPJ/SM's compiler that you can contribute to.    I'm open to suggestions for how best to nurture broad participation.

And meanwhile, in the current hiatus, any support that any of you can give is hugely welcome!

Thanks.

Simon
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Ian leaving and the glorious future

Duncan Coutts-3
On Fri, 2013-08-02 at 18:32 +0000, Simon Peyton-Jones wrote:
> Dear ghc-dev friends,
>
> Ian has now officially left Well Typed, so there now isn't anyone
> whose day job it is to respond to GHC bug mail, Trac tickets etc.
> Well Typed are hiring, and there will be someone new in due course,
> but until then there will be a hiatus.

I've got a little follow-up to Simon's announcement

http://www.well-typed.com/blog/81

The gist is that as Simon says, we are recruiting (application deadline
was 10 days ago), but also that our colleague Edsko is actually working
on GHC at least during this interim period. He started on that quietly a
week or so ago. Of course it takes time to get up to speed, but you're
welcome to grab him to discuss issues. He is also looking at the trac.

We'll keep you all informed as soon as we know exactly who will be
picking up the ghc maintenance. It will actually be two people!

We also second everything Simon says about community involvement, and
we'll play our part with that.

Duncan

> In general, this is part of what I see as a long, slow movement: as
> time goes on, GHC is becoming more and more public property.  Simon
> M's move to Facebook is another part of that movement.  Increasingly,
> GHC is going to rely more on the community to maintain and develop it,
> and less on GHC HQ.  And when I say "the community", I think firstly
> of the ghc-devs list :-).
>
> If the community is to be expected to do more of the work, they should
> also get more influence about decisions.  I don't think there's any
> rush, but I'm open to forming a GHC steering committee (if you would
> like) to broaden the sense of "ownership".
>
> Don't worry: I'm not bowing out!  But I am very much trying to
> encourage you to feel that GHC is *your* compiler, not just SPJ/SM's
> compiler that you can contribute to.    I'm open to suggestions for
> how best to nurture broad participation.
>
> And meanwhile, in the current hiatus, any support that any of you can
> give is hugely welcome!
>
> Thanks.
>
> Simon

--
Duncan Coutts, Haskell Consultant
Well-Typed LLP, http://www.well-typed.com/




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Ian leaving and the glorious future

Vincent Hanquez
In reply to this post by Simon Peyton Jones
On 08/02/2013 07:32 PM, Simon Peyton-Jones wrote:

>
> Dear ghc-dev friends,
>
> [snip]
>
> Don?t worry: I?m not bowing out! But I am very much trying to
> encourage you to feel that GHC is *your* compiler, not just SPJ/SM?s
> compiler that you can contribute to. I?m open to suggestions for how
> best to nurture broad participation.
>

Hi,

As a suggestion to increase participation, OcamlLab recently hosted a
compiler hacking evening [1] and maybe it would be a good idea to host
the same kind of thing for GHC ? If it's not practical to meet in the
same physical place (not enough people in the same place, no place to
meet, etc), organizing IRC hacking session might a good backup option.

Also, one thing that I find missing is a bite sized list of
projects/bug/improvements to get started for newcomers. The full list of
opened issued on trac is probably an intimidating list to get started.

[1] https://github.com/ocamllabs/compiler-hacking/wiki 
<https://github.com/ocamllabs/compiler-hacking/wiki>

--
Vincent



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Ian leaving and the glorious future

Erik de Castro Lopo-34
Vincent Hanquez wrote:

> As a suggestion to increase participation, OcamlLab recently hosted a
> compiler hacking evening [1] and maybe it would be a good idea to host
> the same kind of thing for GHC ?

That's a good idea Vincent.

> If it's not practical to meet in the
> same physical place (not enough people in the same place, no place to
> meet, etc), organizing IRC hacking session might a good backup option.

Maybe ICFP in Boston in Septemtber?

Cheers,
Erik
--
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Erik de Castro Lopo
http://www.mega-nerd.com/



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Ian leaving and the glorious future

Roman Cheplyaka-2
There will also be a Haskell hackathon in Zurich at the end of the
month.
http://www.haskell.org/haskellwiki/ZuriHac2013

Roman

* Erik de Castro Lopo <mle+hs at mega-nerd.com> [2013-08-05 18:15:40+1000]

> Vincent Hanquez wrote:
>
> > As a suggestion to increase participation, OcamlLab recently hosted a
> > compiler hacking evening [1] and maybe it would be a good idea to host
> > the same kind of thing for GHC ?
>
> That's a good idea Vincent.
>
> > If it's not practical to meet in the
> > same physical place (not enough people in the same place, no place to
> > meet, etc), organizing IRC hacking session might a good backup option.
>
> Maybe ICFP in Boston in Septemtber?
>
> Cheers,
> Erik
> --
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> Erik de Castro Lopo
> http://www.mega-nerd.com/
>
> _______________________________________________
> ghc-devs mailing list
> ghc-devs at haskell.org
> http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/ghc-devs



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Ian leaving and the glorious future

Richard Eisenberg-2
In reply to this post by Erik de Castro Lopo-34
I think a hacking session is a great idea, either over IRC or at ICFP.

I'm also thinking about how to foster involvement from newcomers on a
more continual basis. Every several months, someone posts saying,
essentially "I'd like a project. Give me one." The answers seem to be,
"Find an interesting ticket and fix it." The problem is that, often, the
*interesting* tickets are the ones that newcomers would have a hard time
with. What if there were a page with a curated list of newcomer-friendly
tickets? Every few weeks, I see a bug come up that looks easy enough to
fix, but very non-critical. I would be happy to set up this page and
serve as its maintainer. I would want to add a link to it from the main
"working on GHC" wiki page, so it's easy for newcomers to find. The idea
would be that a newcomer fixes a few tickets there, and then has enough
knowledge to tackle something harder.

The piece of this that I would help with is that I'm only familiar with
the first stages of the compiler (to varying degrees): lexing, parsing,
renaming, typechecking, desugaring, Core, and a bit of the simplifier.
After that (optimizations, code generation, cmm, stg, ...) is a murky
haze to me.

Do we think such a page is a good idea? As I said, I'm happy to write it
and maintain it, as well as serve as an email contact to people who want
to contribute and want help. And, is there someone willing to curate the
part of the page (and perhaps answer email) about the "second half" of
ghc?

Thanks,
Richard

On 2013-08-05 09:15, Erik de Castro Lopo wrote:

> Vincent Hanquez wrote:
>
>> As a suggestion to increase participation, OcamlLab recently hosted a
>> compiler hacking evening [1] and maybe it would be a good idea to host
>> the same kind of thing for GHC ?
>
> That's a good idea Vincent.
>
>> If it's not practical to meet in the
>> same physical place (not enough people in the same place, no place to
>> meet, etc), organizing IRC hacking session might a good backup option.
>
> Maybe ICFP in Boston in Septemtber?
>
> Cheers,
> Erik



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Ian leaving and the glorious future

Vincent Hanquez
On 08/05/2013 10:51 AM, Richard Eisenberg wrote:

> I think a hacking session is a great idea, either over IRC or at ICFP.
>
> I'm also thinking about how to foster involvement from newcomers on a
> more continual basis. Every several months, someone posts saying,
> essentially "I'd like a project. Give me one." The answers seem to be,
> "Find an interesting ticket and fix it." The problem is that, often,
> the *interesting* tickets are the ones that newcomers would have a
> hard time with. What if there were a page with a curated list of
> newcomer-friendly tickets? Every few weeks, I see a bug come up that
> looks easy enough to fix, but very non-critical. I would be happy to
> set up this page and serve as its maintainer. I would want to add a
> link to it from the main "working on GHC" wiki page, so it's easy for
> newcomers to find. The idea would be that a newcomer fixes a few
> tickets there, and then has enough knowledge to tackle something harder.
>
I think that's exactly what i was describing with having a list of low
hanging fruits for newcomers. I think it's very worthwhile, and have
this list refreshed every few weeks make it probably even better.

> The piece of this that I would help with is that I'm only familiar
> with the first stages of the compiler (to varying degrees): lexing,
> parsing, renaming, typechecking, desugaring, Core, and a bit of the
> simplifier. After that (optimizations, code generation, cmm, stg, ...)
> is a murky haze to me.
> Do we think such a page is a good idea? As I said, I'm happy to write
> it and maintain it, as well as serve as an email contact to people who
> want to contribute and want help. And, is there someone willing to
> curate the part of the page (and perhaps answer email) about the
> "second half" of ghc?
I'm by no mean an expert in code generation and lower layers, but unless
someone more knowledgeable want to do that, I can help curate the second
half part of the list.

--
Vincent



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Ian leaving and the glorious future

Herbert Valerio Riedel
In reply to this post by Richard Eisenberg-2
Hello Richard,

On 2013-08-05 at 11:51:27 +0200, Richard Eisenberg wrote:

[...]

> Do we think such a page is a good idea? As I said, I'm happy to write
> it and maintain it, as well as serve as an email contact to people who
> want to contribute and want help. And, is there someone willing to
> curate the part of the page (and perhaps answer email) about the
> "second half" of ghc?

Fwiw/fyi, as we use Trac, you could exploit its feature to generate
dynamic lists/tables of tickets matching some criteria (and one of its
strengths is allowing custom queries[1]) and embed them inside Wiki
pages (see [2]).

There is already a custom field 'Difficulty', which could be used to
identify easy tasks. But you could also filter by a certain tag in the
'Keywords' ticket field.

cheers,
  hvr

 [1]: http://ghc.haskell.org/trac/ghc/query
 [2]: http://ghc.haskell.org/trac/ghc/wiki/TracQuery



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Ian leaving and the glorious future

Richard Eisenberg-2
In reply to this post by Vincent Hanquez
OK -- the page is up at http://ghc.haskell.org/trac/ghc/wiki/Newcomers   
Please improve it as you see fit!

Richard

On 2013-08-06 07:04, Vincent Hanquez wrote:

> On 08/05/2013 10:51 AM, Richard Eisenberg wrote:
>> I think a hacking session is a great idea, either over IRC or at ICFP.
>>
>> I'm also thinking about how to foster involvement from newcomers on a
>> more continual basis. Every several months, someone posts saying,
>> essentially "I'd like a project. Give me one." The answers seem to be,
>> "Find an interesting ticket and fix it." The problem is that, often,
>> the *interesting* tickets are the ones that newcomers would have a
>> hard time with. What if there were a page with a curated list of
>> newcomer-friendly tickets? Every few weeks, I see a bug come up that
>> looks easy enough to fix, but very non-critical. I would be happy to
>> set up this page and serve as its maintainer. I would want to add a
>> link to it from the main "working on GHC" wiki page, so it's easy for
>> newcomers to find. The idea would be that a newcomer fixes a few
>> tickets there, and then has enough knowledge to tackle something
>> harder.
>>
> I think that's exactly what i was describing with having a list of low
> hanging fruits for newcomers. I think it's very worthwhile, and have
> this list refreshed every few weeks make it probably even better.
>
>> The piece of this that I would help with is that I'm only familiar
>> with the first stages of the compiler (to varying degrees): lexing,
>> parsing, renaming, typechecking, desugaring, Core, and a bit of the
>> simplifier. After that (optimizations, code generation, cmm, stg, ...)
>> is a murky haze to me.
>> Do we think such a page is a good idea? As I said, I'm happy to write
>> it and maintain it, as well as serve as an email contact to people who
>> want to contribute and want help. And, is there someone willing to
>> curate the part of the page (and perhaps answer email) about the
>> "second half" of ghc?
> I'm by no mean an expert in code generation and lower layers, but
> unless someone more knowledgeable want to do that, I can help curate
> the second half part of the list.



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Ian leaving and the glorious future

Yuri de Wit
Richard,

thanks for this! One item that probably deserves it's own section is how to
generate and submit a patch.

And as an aside question, when would one need to compile state 1 vs stage 2
(aside from the first compilation)?




On Fri, Aug 9, 2013 at 6:56 AM, Richard Eisenberg <eir at cis.upenn.edu> wrote:

> OK -- the page is up at http://ghc.haskell.org/trac/**ghc/wiki/Newcomers<http://ghc.haskell.org/trac/ghc/wiki/Newcomers>  Please improve it as you see fit!
>
> Richard
>
>
> On 2013-08-06 07:04, Vincent Hanquez wrote:
>
>> On 08/05/2013 10:51 AM, Richard Eisenberg wrote:
>>
>>> I think a hacking session is a great idea, either over IRC or at ICFP.
>>>
>>> I'm also thinking about how to foster involvement from newcomers on a
>>> more continual basis. Every several months, someone posts saying,
>>> essentially "I'd like a project. Give me one." The answers seem to be,
>>> "Find an interesting ticket and fix it." The problem is that, often, the
>>> *interesting* tickets are the ones that newcomers would have a hard time
>>> with. What if there were a page with a curated list of newcomer-friendly
>>> tickets? Every few weeks, I see a bug come up that looks easy enough to
>>> fix, but very non-critical. I would be happy to set up this page and serve
>>> as its maintainer. I would want to add a link to it from the main "working
>>> on GHC" wiki page, so it's easy for newcomers to find. The idea would be
>>> that a newcomer fixes a few tickets there, and then has enough knowledge to
>>> tackle something harder.
>>>
>>>  I think that's exactly what i was describing with having a list of low
>> hanging fruits for newcomers. I think it's very worthwhile, and have
>> this list refreshed every few weeks make it probably even better.
>>
>>  The piece of this that I would help with is that I'm only familiar with
>>> the first stages of the compiler (to varying degrees): lexing, parsing,
>>> renaming, typechecking, desugaring, Core, and a bit of the simplifier.
>>> After that (optimizations, code generation, cmm, stg, ...) is a murky haze
>>> to me.
>>> Do we think such a page is a good idea? As I said, I'm happy to write it
>>> and maintain it, as well as serve as an email contact to people who want to
>>> contribute and want help. And, is there someone willing to curate the part
>>> of the page (and perhaps answer email) about the "second half" of ghc?
>>>
>> I'm by no mean an expert in code generation and lower layers, but
>> unless someone more knowledgeable want to do that, I can help curate
>> the second half part of the list.
>>
>
> ______________________________**_________________
> ghc-devs mailing list
> ghc-devs at haskell.org
> http://www.haskell.org/**mailman/listinfo/ghc-devs<http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/ghc-devs>
>
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Ian leaving and the glorious future

Richard Eisenberg-2
I've had to deal with the stage 1 compiler for two different reasons:

- I check out a new tree to work on a new task, and I forget to build
before modifying the code.

- I'm working on a tree with a working stage-1 compiler, but then I
change the interface file format. After the stage-2 compiler builds, it
can't do anything because it can't read any of the libraries.

Another nice benefit of working on stage 1 is that I can put off dealing
with Template Haskell until the core functionality is working.

I always get a little confused with the git commands to generate patches
in just the right way. If someone else feels confident about this, you
can add the section -- I agree it would be an improvement.

Richard

On 2013-08-09 11:13, Yuri de Wit wrote:

> Richard,
>
> thanks for this! One item that probably deserves it's own section is
> how to generate and submit a patch.
>
> And as an aside question, when would one need to compile state 1 vs
> stage 2 (aside from the first compilation)?
>
> On Fri, Aug 9, 2013 at 6:56 AM, Richard Eisenberg <eir at cis.upenn.edu>
> wrote:
>
>> OK -- the page is up at
>> http://ghc.haskell.org/trac/ghc/wiki/Newcomers [1] ? Please improve
>> it as you see fit!
>>
>> Richard
>>
>> On 2013-08-06 07:04, Vincent Hanquez wrote:
>> On 08/05/2013 10:51 AM, Richard Eisenberg wrote:
>> I think a hacking session is a great idea, either over IRC or at
>> ICFP.
>>
>> I'm also thinking about how to foster involvement from newcomers on
>> a more continual basis. Every several months, someone posts saying,
>> essentially "I'd like a project. Give me one." The answers seem to
>> be, "Find an interesting ticket and fix it." The problem is that,
>> often, the *interesting* tickets are the ones that newcomers would
>> have a hard time with. What if there were a page with a curated list
>> of newcomer-friendly tickets? Every few weeks, I see a bug come up
>> that looks easy enough to fix, but very non-critical. I would be
>> happy to set up this page and serve as its maintainer. I would want
>> to add a link to it from the main "working on GHC" wiki page, so
>> it's easy for newcomers to find. The idea would be that a newcomer
>> fixes a few tickets there, and then has enough knowledge to tackle
>> something harder.
>>
>> I think that's exactly what i was describing with having a list of
>> low
>> hanging fruits for newcomers. I think it's very worthwhile, and
>> have
>> this list refreshed every few weeks make it probably even better.
>>
>> The piece of this that I would help with is that I'm only familiar
>> with the first stages of the compiler (to varying degrees): lexing,
>> parsing, renaming, typechecking, desugaring, Core, and a bit of the
>> simplifier. After that (optimizations, code generation, cmm, stg,
>> ...) is a murky haze to me.
>> Do we think such a page is a good idea? As I said, I'm happy to
>> write it and maintain it, as well as serve as an email contact to
>> people who want to contribute and want help. And, is there someone
>> willing to curate the part of the page (and perhaps answer email)
>> about the "second half" of ghc?
>> I'm by no mean an expert in code generation and lower layers, but
>> unless someone more knowledgeable want to do that, I can help
>> curate
>> the second half part of the list.
>
>  _______________________________________________
>  ghc-devs mailing list
>  ghc-devs at haskell.org
>  http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/ghc-devs [2]
>
>
>
> Links:
> ------
> [1] http://ghc.haskell.org/trac/ghc/wiki/Newcomers
> [2] http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/ghc-devs