Monad pronounced like gonad?

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Monad pronounced like gonad?

Dan Weston
I've been pronouncing monad like gonad (moh-nad), but it occurs to me
that it might be pronounced like monoid (mah-nad).

Is there an official way to pronouce this word - maybe with a Scottish
accent? :)

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Re: Monad pronounced like gonad?

Tom Harper
Hahahah, it's pronounced the way you've been saying it =)

On 5/10/07, Dan Weston <[hidden email]> wrote:

> I've been pronouncing monad like gonad (moh-nad), but it occurs to me
> that it might be pronounced like monoid (mah-nad).
>
> Is there an official way to pronouce this word - maybe with a Scottish
> accent? :)
>
> _______________________________________________
> Haskell-Cafe mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
>


--
Tom Harper
Computer Science Major '07
Syracuse University
+1 949 235 0185
Public Key: http://aftereternity.co.uk/rth.asc
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Re: Monad pronounced like gonad?

David House
In reply to this post by Dan Weston
On 10/05/07, Dan Weston <[hidden email]> wrote:
> I've been pronouncing monad like gonad (moh-nad), but it occurs to me
> that it might be pronounced like monoid (mah-nad).

You say monoid mah-nad? I've always said mon-oyd, to rhyme with void or annoyed.

--
-David House, [hidden email]
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Re: Monad pronounced like gonad?

Hudak, Paul
In reply to this post by Tom Harper
This reminds me of a joke (which depends on recognizing a connection
between monads,
continuations, control, and goto statements):

Q: What do you get when you cross a monad with a continuation?
A: A gonad.

(I am sure I will hear the groans right through the ethernet! :-)

    -Paul


Tom Harper wrote:
> Hahahah, it's pronounced the way you've been saying it =)
>
> On 5/10/07, Dan Weston <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> I've been pronouncing monad like gonad (moh-nad), but it occurs to me
>> that it might be pronounced like monoid (mah-nad).
>>
>> Is there an official way to pronouce this word - maybe with a Scottish
>> accent? :)

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Re: Monad pronounced like gonad?

Andrew Coppin
In reply to this post by Dan Weston
Dan Weston wrote:
> I've been pronouncing monad like gonad (moh-nad), but it occurs to me
> that it might be pronounced like monoid (mah-nad).

Hmm... I always assumed it was like "mon-ad". (Once I finally stopped
saying "mon-and" by mistake!) But I don't know how you're really
supposed to say it...

While we're on the subject, how do you pronounce "darcs"?

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Re: Monad pronounced like gonad?

Dan Piponi-2
A more pressing question. How do you pronounce the following:

->
<-
[]

and countless others...

I presume \, as in \a -> x, is pronounced 'lambda'.
--
Dan

On 5/10/07, Andrew Coppin <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Dan Weston wrote:
> > I've been pronouncing monad like gonad (moh-nad), but it occurs to me
> > that it might be pronounced like monoid (mah-nad).
>
> Hmm... I always assumed it was like "mon-ad". (Once I finally stopped
> saying "mon-and" by mistake!) But I don't know how you're really
> supposed to say it...
>
> While we're on the subject, how do you pronounce "darcs"?
>
> _______________________________________________
> Haskell-Cafe mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
>
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Re: Monad pronounced like gonad?

Neil Mitchell
Hi

> A more pressing question. How do you pronounce the following:
>
> ->

"to"

> <-

"from", or "drawn from" for list comprehensions.

> []

"nil"

In reality, if you want to talk Haskell and are in person, grab a
whiteboard. If you are over IRC or email, don't worry.

Thanks

Neil
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Re: Monad pronounced like gonad?

Creighton Hogg-4
In reply to this post by Dan Weston


On 5/10/07, Dan Weston <[hidden email]> wrote:
I've been pronouncing monad like gonad (moh-nad), but it occurs to me
that it might be pronounced like monoid (mah-nad).

Is there an official way to pronouce this word - maybe with a Scottish
accent? :)

I've always said mah-nad, mah-noyd, and I think it might be because I always heard mah-no-morphism, not mo-no-morphism.  I'll admit that doesn't really make sense, given then it's ho-mo-morphism.



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Re: Monad pronounced like gonad?

Melissa O'Neill
In reply to this post by Andrew Coppin
Although I hate to resort to dictionaries, curiosity got the better  
of me and I find the following.

According to both Merriam Webster and the OED, monad is indeed  
pronounced exactly like gonad.  BUT, in the UK at least, there is  
more than way to pronounce gonad, so it doesn't necessarily clarify  
things.

In the US (according to Merriam Webster), it appears that the correct  
pronunciation is mō-nad, like joe-nad.

In the UK (according to the OED), it appears that the pronunciation  
is either mȯ-nad, like gone-bad (i.e., with an "o" sound like the  
"o" in lot or pot), or  mō-nad, like joe-nad.

So, from this information, we can conclude that to be truly  
international, go with the long O sound, and to sound more English,  
use the short o sound.

     Melissa.

P.S. See http://mw1.merriam-webster.com/pronsymbols.html for the  
meanings of the phonetic symbols "ō" and "ȯ". (Assuming they make  
it through email, etc., which is probably unlikely, but we'll see.)

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Re: Monad pronounced like gonad?

Andrew Coppin
In reply to this post by Neil Mitchell

>> ->
>
> "to"
>
>> <-
>
> "from", or "drawn from" for list comprehensions.
>
>> []
>
> "nil"

More curiosely, that (>>=) function. Why is the Haskell name for it
(>>=), and why is it pronounced "bind"? Neither of these choices make a
lot of sense to me...

> In reality, if you want to talk Haskell and are in person, grab a
> whiteboard. If you are over IRC or email, don't worry.

True...

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Re: Monad pronounced like gonad?

David Roundy-2
On Thu, May 10, 2007 at 09:20:18PM +0100, Andrew Coppin wrote:
> More curiosely, that (>>=) function. Why is the Haskell name for it
> (>>=), and why is it pronounced "bind"? Neither of these choices make a
> lot of sense to me...

For the correct pronunciation of >>= see

http://www.haskell.org/pipermail/haskell-cafe/2006-November/019190.html

Excerpted from the above email:

    (>>=) :: Monster m => m a -> (a -> m b) -> m b

(>>=) should be read as the monster on the left expelling values through
its rows of teeth and over its tongue at the function on the right.
(Its pronunciation is a sort of bestial hissing that is difficult to
describe; when you say it correctly, the terminal may become slightly
moist.)
--
David Roundy
Department of Physics
Oregon State University
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Re: Monad pronounced like gonad?

Dipankar Ray
In reply to this post by Melissa O'Neill

I cringe to post to a thread with this subject line, but no American
mathematician I know would call it "Moe-nad".

I think the US math consensus is "Mon - ad", where mon is like the
faux-jamaican "Hey, mon", or (more to the point) monoid or monomorphism.

Sometimes Dictionaries are only as good as (their current crop of
fact-checkers) x (current budget)

On Thu, 10 May 2007, Melissa O'Neill wrote:

> Although I hate to resort to dictionaries, curiosity got the better of me and
> I find the following.
>
> According to both Merriam Webster and the OED, monad is indeed pronounced
> exactly like gonad.  BUT, in the UK at least, there is more than way to
> pronounce gonad, so it doesn't necessarily clarify things.
>
> In the US (according to Merriam Webster), it appears that the correct
> pronunciation is mō-nad, like joe-nad.
>
> In the UK (according to the OED), it appears that the pronunciation is either
> mȯ-nad, like gone-bad (i.e., with an "o" sound like the "o" in lot or pot),
> or  mō-nad, like joe-nad.
>
> So, from this information, we can conclude that to be truly international, go
> with the long O sound, and to sound more English, use the short o sound.
>
>   Melissa.
>
> P.S. See http://mw1.merriam-webster.com/pronsymbols.html for the meanings of
> the phonetic symbols "ō" and "ȯ". (Assuming they make it through email,
> etc., which is probably unlikely, but we'll see.)
>
> _______________________________________________
> Haskell-Cafe mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
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Re: Monad pronounced like gonad?

Mark T.B. Carroll-2
In reply to this post by Andrew Coppin
Andrew Coppin <[hidden email]> writes:
(snip)
> More curiosely, that (>>=) function. Why is the Haskell name for it
> (>>=), and why is it pronounced "bind"? Neither of these choices make a
> lot of sense to me...
(snip)

I don't know the answer, but it seems okay to me because I think of
monads as being about sequenced computation with >> indicating the flow
from return value of one going into the arguments of the next, and the =
indicating that we do bother making a constant equal to that return
value as an argument in the next (it's on the next's side of the >>)
instead of throwing it away. The functions are bound together (hence
'bind') by the >> or >>= as being consecutive steps in the sequence of
the computation we are doing.

-- Mark

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Re: Monad pronounced like gonad?

Derek Elkins
In reply to this post by Dan Piponi-2
Dan Piponi wrote:
> A more pressing question. How do you pronounce the following:
>
> ->
In both case expressions and lambdas I would not read this if it could be
decided by context and vocal dynamics (like the way most people pronounce
parenthesized arithmetic expressions), for cases "is" would work nicely.
For -> in types, "to" works well.

> <-
I would read "a <- foo" as "bind a to the value produced by foo"

> []
nil as others have said (and correspondingly, : is cons)

> and countless others...
::, "has type" or "is in"
@ reads as "as"

> I presume \, as in \a -> x, is pronounced 'lambda'.
yes
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Re: Monad pronounced like gonad?

Derek Elkins
In reply to this post by Andrew Coppin
Andrew Coppin wrote:

>
>>> ->
>>
>> "to"
>>
>>> <-
>>
>> "from", or "drawn from" for list comprehensions.
>>
>>> []
>>
>> "nil"
>
> More curiosely, that (>>=) function. Why is the Haskell name for it
> (>>=), and why is it pronounced "bind"? Neither of these choices make a
> lot of sense to me...

(>>=) is chosen as it seems fairly nice when you use a sugar free monadic style,
foo x >>= \y ->
bar y >>= \z ->
return (y+z)

To understand why it's called "bind" look at common sugar for it, e.g. the above
using do-notation and a "let" notation (e.g. monadic- or ]administrative-
(A-)normal form):

do
     y <- foo x
     z <- bar y
     return (y+z)

letM y = foo x in
letM z = bar y in
y + z

So the effect of (>>=) is to bind the value produced by a monadic computation to
some variable.  If we view impure languages as implicitly using a monad, their
"let" statements (which bind variables to values) translate to exactly the above.
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Re: Monad pronounced like gonad?

Jules Bean
In reply to this post by Dan Piponi-2
[If I sound definitive below, it's because I am stating facts; but they
are facts about the community of mathematicians and computer scientists
I have interacted with in person. I'm sure other physically-connected
communities have adopted different conventions]

Dan Piponi wrote:
> A more pressing question. How do you pronounce the following:
>
> ->

In types, or logical formulae, "arrow". The type of ($) is pronounced

<said fast> A arrow B <now slower> arrow A arrow B

where inflection or variation in pause length suffices for the
parentheses to be implied. In much more complex expressions you probably
have to write them down whilst speaking and point as you go. I've seen
people use their hands to indicate parenthesis; lightly cupped each side
of the head, rather like the 'bunny-ears for quotation' thing some
people do.


In a lambda expression, the arrow simply isn't read at all.  \x -> x + 1
is read "lambda X X plus one". Some people would read the arrow as
'dot', "lambda X dot X plus one" which is a reflection of the fact that
haskell's '->' is the same thing as a 'church dot'.

> <-

I've most often heard this read 'gets'. Note that this symbol is often
used for assignment when discussing simple languages (e.g. algol-like).

>
> []

"nil".  Similarly ':' is often read 'cons'.


I've heard it suggested that '>>=' be read 'bind' or 'binds' and >> as
'then'.


Back to the thread, I concur with the post who points to 'monomorphism'
and 'monoid'. In category theory a morphism is described as 'mono' if it
has the obvious generalisation of what monomorphism normally means; I
can't imagine anybody pronouncing that 'Moe No'. By analogy, monad and
monoid have always been pronounced with a short first O in my hearing.
It may be different outside the UK.

Jules

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