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New List

Chad Wilson
And the new list is now begun for people like me, n00bs.

--
Chad Wilson
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New List

Chad Wilson
Any chance the subject of this new list could have some []'ed text to help
identify it more easily?

-w
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New List

John Dorsey-2
> Any chance the subject of this new list could have some []'ed text to help
> identify it more easily?

I agree.  Since [Haskell-beginners] would take up about 20 characters,
I suggest a shortened form:

1.  [HS-beginners]
2.  [HS-begin]
3.  [HS-bgnr]
4.  [HS-B]

I think (3.) is a good balance between size and readability.

John

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New List

Andrew Wagner
I'll add my name to that petition. Though I would vote for [HS-begin].
Only one letter longer than option 3, and far more readable.

On Thu, Jul 17, 2008 at 12:09 PM, John Dorsey <[hidden email]> wrote:

>> Any chance the subject of this new list could have some []'ed text to help
>> identify it more easily?
>
> I agree.  Since [Haskell-beginners] would take up about 20 characters,
> I suggest a shortened form:
>
> 1.  [HS-beginners]
> 2.  [HS-begin]
> 3.  [HS-bgnr]
> 4.  [HS-B]
>
> I think (3.) is a good balance between size and readability.
>
> John
>
> _______________________________________________
> Beginners mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/beginners
>
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New List

Angelos Sphyris
In reply to this post by John Dorsey-2
How about [Haskell-begin]?

I think using "HS" goes against the style of the Haskell and Haskell Cafe
lists, which use [Haskell] and [Haskell-Cafe] respectively. And "begin" is
just one letter longer than "cafe".

Angelos


----- Original Message -----
From: "John Dorsey" <[hidden email]>
To: <[hidden email]>
Sent: Thursday, July 17, 2008 7:09 PM
Subject: Re: New List


>> Any chance the subject of this new list could have some []'ed text to
>> help
>> identify it more easily?
>
> I agree.  Since [Haskell-beginners] would take up about 20 characters,
> I suggest a shortened form:
>
> 1.  [HS-beginners]
> 2.  [HS-begin]
> 3.  [HS-bgnr]
> 4.  [HS-B]
>
> I think (3.) is a good balance between size and readability.
>
> John
>
> _______________________________________________
> Beginners mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/beginners
>


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New List

John Dorsey-2
> How about [Haskell-begin]?

I don't mind it.  Although, I've always wished the cafe used a
shorter prefix.  I read in a text window, with mutt, in 80 columns.

My preferences, in order:

[HS-bgnr]
[HS-begin]
[Haskell-begin]

John

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New List

Allan Clark
In reply to this post by Chad Wilson
I quite like that too, though I must admit I just filter on the 'sender'
header.

regards
allan


Chad Wilson wrote:
> Any chance the subject of this new list could have some []'ed text to
> help identify it more easily?
>
> -w
>  

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[Haskell-begin] Re: New List

Benjamin L. Russell
In response to the posts in this thread, I have modified the prefix
for the subject line of list postings from a null string to
"[Haskell-begin]."

Personally, though, I prefer either a null string (my higher
preference) or the opposite extreme, "[Haskell-beginners]," in line
with the full naming of "[Haskell-cafe]."  If any of you share either
of these preferences, please voice your opinion on this forum, so that
I can change the prefix.

As an argument in favor changing the prefix to a null string, if you
filter for "[hidden email]" on the To/CC header, you can filter
out all the messages for this mailing list without a prefix for the
subject line of list postings.

I.e., e.g., in Yahoo! Mail, first create a mail folder called
"Haskell-Beginner Mailing List."  Then, go to "Options" -> "Mail
Options" -> "Filters," and add the following filter:

Haskell-Beginners Mailing List

If...

   To/CC contains "[hidden email]"

Then...

   Move message to Haskell-Beginners Mailing List folder

This is how I filter out all my Haskell and Haskell-Cafe mailing list
messages.

This allows all applicable messages to be filtered without the need
for a prefix for the subject line of list postings.

Please post your opinion on this forum as to whether creating this
kind of mail filter would be acceptable.  If most people agree to this
proposal, I will change the prefix back to a null string.
Alternatively, if you feel that "[Haskell-beginners]," in line with
"[Haskell-cafe]," is not too long, I can change it to that prefix.

Just for reference, I did a search on mailing lists, and discovered
that the "plt-announce" mailing list has a prefix of "[PLT
announcement]," which is 16 characters long, only one character
shorter than "[Haskell-beginners]."

-- Benjamin L. Russell

On Thu, 17 Jul 2008 20:51:05 +0100, Allan <[hidden email]> wrote:

>I quite like that too, though I must admit I just filter on the 'sender'
>header.
>
>regards
>allan
>
>
>Chad Wilson wrote:
>> Any chance the subject of this new list could have some []'ed text to
>> help identify it more easily?
>>
>> -w
>>  

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[Haskell-begin] Re: New List

Benjamin L. Russell
On Fri, 18 Jul 2008 12:27:32 +0900, Benjamin L.Russell
<[hidden email]> wrote:

> [...]
>
>   To/CC contains "[hidden email]"

My apologies.  This should have been as follows:

>   To/CC contains "[hidden email]"

-- Benjamin L. Russell

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[Haskell-begin] Re: New List

Rafael Gustavo da Cunha Pereira Pinto
In reply to this post by John Dorsey-2
I also vote for 3.

On Thu, Jul 17, 2008 at 13:09, John Dorsey <[hidden email]> wrote:

> > Any chance the subject of this new list could have some []'ed text to
> help
> > identify it more easily?
>
> I agree.  Since [Haskell-beginners] would take up about 20 characters,
> I suggest a shortened form:
>
> 1.  [HS-beginners]
> 2.  [HS-begin]
> 3.  [HS-bgnr]
> 4.  [HS-B]
>
> I think (3.) is a good balance between size and readability.
>
> John
>
> _______________________________________________
> Beginners mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/beginners
>



--
Rafael Gustavo da Cunha Pereira Pinto
Electronic Engineer, MSc.
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[Haskell-begin] Re: New List

John Melesky
In reply to this post by Benjamin L. Russell
My personal preference is the "no prefix" option.

Like Benjamin, i filter on something other than the subject, though in  
my case it's the "List-Id" header, which all mailman and majordomo  
installs (and most other listserver implementations) provide by default.

Of course, i'm one of those people who automatically sorts all  
listserver traffic into listserver-specific folders. It lets me  
compartmentalize list discussions, and postpone reading particular  
lists till i have time to catch up.

All of that said, i don't really have a vested interest in this. Since  
i'm filtering by something other than subject line, i'm fine with  
whatever the subject line ends up being.

-johnnnnnn


On Jul 17, 2008, at 10:27 PM, Benjamin L.Russell wrote:

> In response to the posts in this thread, I have modified the prefix
> for the subject line of list postings from a null string to
> "[Haskell-begin]."
>
> Personally, though, I prefer either a null string (my higher
> preference) or the opposite extreme, "[Haskell-beginners]," in line
> with the full naming of "[Haskell-cafe]."  If any of you share either
> of these preferences, please voice your opinion on this forum, so that
> I can change the prefix.
>
> As an argument in favor changing the prefix to a null string, if you
> filter for "[hidden email]" on the To/CC header, you can filter
> out all the messages for this mailing list without a prefix for the
> subject line of list postings.
>
> I.e., e.g., in Yahoo! Mail, first create a mail folder called
> "Haskell-Beginner Mailing List."  Then, go to "Options" -> "Mail
> Options" -> "Filters," and add the following filter:
>
> Haskell-Beginners Mailing List
>
> If...
>
>   To/CC contains "[hidden email]"
>
> Then...
>
>   Move message to Haskell-Beginners Mailing List folder
>
> This is how I filter out all my Haskell and Haskell-Cafe mailing list
> messages.
>
> This allows all applicable messages to be filtered without the need
> for a prefix for the subject line of list postings.
>
> Please post your opinion on this forum as to whether creating this
> kind of mail filter would be acceptable.  If most people agree to this
> proposal, I will change the prefix back to a null string.
> Alternatively, if you feel that "[Haskell-beginners]," in line with
> "[Haskell-cafe]," is not too long, I can change it to that prefix.
>
> Just for reference, I did a search on mailing lists, and discovered
> that the "plt-announce" mailing list has a prefix of "[PLT
> announcement]," which is 16 characters long, only one character
> shorter than "[Haskell-beginners]."
>
> -- Benjamin L. Russell
>
> On Thu, 17 Jul 2008 20:51:05 +0100, Allan <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> I quite like that too, though I must admit I just filter on the  
>> 'sender'
>> header.
>>
>> regards
>> allan
>>
>>
>> Chad Wilson wrote:
>>> Any chance the subject of this new list could have some []'ed text  
>>> to
>>> help identify it more easily?
>>>
>>> -w
>>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Beginners mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/beginners
>

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[Haskell-begin] Re: New List

Felipe Lessa
On Fri, Jul 18, 2008 at 11:24 AM, John Melesky <[hidden email]> wrote:
> My personal preference is the "no prefix" option.

I prefer without prefix, too.

(GMail users, click "show details" and go to "Filter messages of this
mailing list").

--
Felipe.
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[Haskell-begin] Re: New List

Chaddaï Fouché
2008/7/18 Felipe Lessa <[hidden email]>:
> On Fri, Jul 18, 2008 at 11:24 AM, John Melesky <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> My personal preference is the "no prefix" option.
>
> I prefer without prefix, too.

Me too. I filter on the list header. But I'm fine with any prefix
(though [Haskell-Beginner] seems a bit long, [Hs-Begin] would be
fine).

--
Jeda?
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[Haskell-begin] Re: New List

José Romildo Malaquias
In reply to this post by John Melesky
On Fri, Jul 18, 2008 at 09:24:44AM -0500, John Melesky wrote:
> My personal preference is the "no prefix" option.

Mine too.

I filter by the X-BeenThere header.

Romildo
B
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[Haskell-begin] Re: New List

B
In reply to this post by Benjamin L. Russell

> This allows all applicable messages to be filtered without the need
> for a prefix for the subject line of list postings.
>
> Please post your opinion on this forum as to whether creating this
> kind of mail filter would be acceptable.  If most people agree to this
> proposal, I will change the prefix back to a null string.

I prefer a null string - if filtering can be easily accomplished with
the sender field, then extra stuff in the subject just makes it harder
to read.

Ben B.

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[Haskell-begin] Re: New List

Chad Wilson
I am willing to give null string a chance for this beginners list.  I
will just have to gmail to use a more audacious color to set these
messages apart from the other programming lists I am on.

-w
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[Haskell-begin] Re: New List

John Dorsey-2
In reply to this post by B
> >This allows all applicable messages to be filtered without the need
> >for a prefix for the subject line of list postings.
> >
> >Please post your opinion on this forum as to whether creating this
> >kind of mail filter would be acceptable.  If most people agree to this
> >proposal, I will change the prefix back to a null string.

I already filter on something else.  I proposed adding the prefix for
two reasons:  (1) I file all my haskell-related lists into the same
box, and the prefix is handy for quickly telling which one I'm reading.
This can make the difference between, say, suggesting unsafePerformIO
(in the cafe) or a brief explanation of IO (on this list).  And (2) for
conistency with [Haskell] and [Haskell-cafe].

It's not important to me.  Sounds like the majority are for no prefix.

John

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[Haskell-begin] Re: New List

Benjamin L. Russell
On Fri, 18 Jul 2008 17:56:59 -0400, John Dorsey <[hidden email]>
wrote:

>I already filter on something else.  I proposed adding the prefix for
>two reasons:  (1) I file all my haskell-related lists into the same
>box, and the prefix is handy for quickly telling which one I'm reading.
>This can make the difference between, say, suggesting unsafePerformIO
>(in the cafe) or a brief explanation of IO (on this list).  And (2) for
>conistency with [Haskell] and [Haskell-cafe].

I see your point:  You would appreciate being able to use
"[Haskell-begin] unsafePerformIO" vs. "[Haskell-cafe] unsafePerformIO"
to differentiate between a brief explanation of IO on
Haskell-Beginners vs. suggesting unsafePerformIO on Haskell-Cafe.

That actually is a valid point, and could prove useful at times.

Apart from just consistency with "[Haskell]" and "[Haskell-cafe]" in
the prefix for the subject lines of Haskell and Haskell-Cafe, it seems
that a prefix would be useful in ensuring consistency in having this
mailing list referred to as "Haskell-Beginners," and not just
"Beginners," by new members.  Otherwise, the fact that the e-mail
address is [hidden email], and not
[hidden email], could create confusion.  New members
would probably start saying "Haskell" vs. "Haskell-Cafe" vs.
"Beginners," leading to further inconsistencies in the proper names.
Eventually, most people would just start calling this list "Beginners"
because the name is shorter, and the name "Haskell-Beginners" would
become mostly forgotten.  However, if the prefix referred to the
proper name of the list in every message, this confusion could be
minimized.

>It's not important to me.  Sounds like the majority are for no prefix.

Nonetheless, you had a valid point, and many users had stated that as
long as the prefix was short, the presence or absence of the prefix
did not really matter to them.  Ideally, my personal preference would
be to be completely consistent with [Haskell] and [Haskell-cafe], and
change the prefix to [Haskell-beginners], but it seems that then many
readers would believe this prefix to be too long and make the subject
line hard to read.

For the sake of argument, let's experiment:

[Haskell-begin] unsafePerformIO
[Haskell-beginners] unsafePerformIO

Now, let's try a longer example:

[Haskell-begin] beginners mailing list should be beginner's choice
[Haskell-beginners] beginners mailing list should be beginner's choice

Right now, in my Yahoo! Mail Haskell-Cafe folder, a typical truncated
long subject-line message reads as follows:

[Haskell-cafe] ghc 6.8.3 build error with __DISCARD__ linking problem,
please hel

That's 81 characters.

Right now, the longest example that I can find of a subject line in
Haskell-Beginners is the following:

[Haskell-begin] Re: [Haskell-cafe] Trouble with non-exhaustive
patterns

That's 71 characters, using "[Haskell-begin]."  If we changed
"[Haskell-begin]" to "[Haskell-beginners]," that would add 4
characters, increasing the length to 75.  That's still below 81.
Here's a comparison:

[Haskell-begin] Re: [Haskell-cafe] Trouble with non-exhaustive
patterns
[Haskell-beginners] Re: [Haskell-cafe] Trouble with non-exhaustive
patterns

Given that some mailing lists, such as plt-announce, already get by
using prefixes of similar length (in their case, "[PLT
announcement]," I think that in practice, after a few weeks, most
readers would probably unconsciously just ignore the prefix and read
the rest, and new readers would be able to read "[Haskell]" vs.
"[Haskell-cafe]" vs. "[Haskell-beginners]" for consistency (although
some users would probably complain at first).

Just for comparison, here are some examples of what is happening with
the subject lines in plt-announce:

[PLT announcement] PLT Scheme v4.0
[PLT announcement] PLT Scheme v4.0.2

Let's compare what would happen with similar typical subject lines
with "[Haskell-begin]" vs. "[Haskell-beginners]":

[Haskell-begin] Exercises for beginners and Natural Tansformations
[Haskell-beginners] Exercises for beginners and Natural Tansformations

What do you think?  Opinions, comment?  You decide.

-- Benjamin L. Russell

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[Haskell-begin] Re: New List

Angelos Sphyris
I believe that using [hidden email] and [Haskell-begin] in the subject line may confuse people.
So, I would opt for [Haskell-beginners].

Angelos


----- Original Message -----
From: "Benjamin L.Russell" <[hidden email]>
To: <[hidden email]>
Sent: Tuesday, July 22, 2008 6:30 AM
Subject: Re: [Haskell-begin] Re: New List


> On Fri, 18 Jul 2008 17:56:59 -0400, John Dorsey <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>
>>I already filter on something else.  I proposed adding the prefix for
>>two reasons:  (1) I file all my haskell-related lists into the same
>>box, and the prefix is handy for quickly telling which one I'm reading.
>>This can make the difference between, say, suggesting unsafePerformIO
>>(in the cafe) or a brief explanation of IO (on this list).  And (2) for
>>conistency with [Haskell] and [Haskell-cafe].
>
> I see your point:  You would appreciate being able to use
> "[Haskell-begin] unsafePerformIO" vs. "[Haskell-cafe] unsafePerformIO"
> to differentiate between a brief explanation of IO on
> Haskell-Beginners vs. suggesting unsafePerformIO on Haskell-Cafe.
>
> That actually is a valid point, and could prove useful at times.
>
> Apart from just consistency with "[Haskell]" and "[Haskell-cafe]" in
> the prefix for the subject lines of Haskell and Haskell-Cafe, it seems
> that a prefix would be useful in ensuring consistency in having this
> mailing list referred to as "Haskell-Beginners," and not just
> "Beginners," by new members.  Otherwise, the fact that the e-mail
> address is [hidden email], and not
> [hidden email], could create confusion.  New members
> would probably start saying "Haskell" vs. "Haskell-Cafe" vs.
> "Beginners," leading to further inconsistencies in the proper names.
> Eventually, most people would just start calling this list "Beginners"
> because the name is shorter, and the name "Haskell-Beginners" would
> become mostly forgotten.  However, if the prefix referred to the
> proper name of the list in every message, this confusion could be
> minimized.
>
>>It's not important to me.  Sounds like the majority are for no prefix.
>
> Nonetheless, you had a valid point, and many users had stated that as
> long as the prefix was short, the presence or absence of the prefix
> did not really matter to them.  Ideally, my personal preference would
> be to be completely consistent with [Haskell] and [Haskell-cafe], and
> change the prefix to [Haskell-beginners], but it seems that then many
> readers would believe this prefix to be too long and make the subject
> line hard to read.
>
> For the sake of argument, let's experiment:
>
> [Haskell-begin] unsafePerformIO
> [Haskell-beginners] unsafePerformIO
>
> Now, let's try a longer example:
>
> [Haskell-begin] beginners mailing list should be beginner's choice
> [Haskell-beginners] beginners mailing list should be beginner's choice
>
> Right now, in my Yahoo! Mail Haskell-Cafe folder, a typical truncated
> long subject-line message reads as follows:
>
> [Haskell-cafe] ghc 6.8.3 build error with __DISCARD__ linking problem,
> please hel
>
> That's 81 characters.
>
> Right now, the longest example that I can find of a subject line in
> Haskell-Beginners is the following:
>
> [Haskell-begin] Re: [Haskell-cafe] Trouble with non-exhaustive
> patterns
>
> That's 71 characters, using "[Haskell-begin]."  If we changed
> "[Haskell-begin]" to "[Haskell-beginners]," that would add 4
> characters, increasing the length to 75.  That's still below 81.
> Here's a comparison:
>
> [Haskell-begin] Re: [Haskell-cafe] Trouble with non-exhaustive
> patterns
> [Haskell-beginners] Re: [Haskell-cafe] Trouble with non-exhaustive
> patterns
>
> Given that some mailing lists, such as plt-announce, already get by
> using prefixes of similar length (in their case, "[PLT
> announcement]," I think that in practice, after a few weeks, most
> readers would probably unconsciously just ignore the prefix and read
> the rest, and new readers would be able to read "[Haskell]" vs.
> "[Haskell-cafe]" vs. "[Haskell-beginners]" for consistency (although
> some users would probably complain at first).
>
> Just for comparison, here are some examples of what is happening with
> the subject lines in plt-announce:
>
> [PLT announcement] PLT Scheme v4.0
> [PLT announcement] PLT Scheme v4.0.2
>
> Let's compare what would happen with similar typical subject lines
> with "[Haskell-begin]" vs. "[Haskell-beginners]":
>
> [Haskell-begin] Exercises for beginners and Natural Tansformations
> [Haskell-beginners] Exercises for beginners and Natural Tansformations
>
> What do you think?  Opinions, comment?  You decide.
>
> -- Benjamin L. Russell
>
> _______________________________________________
> Beginners mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/beginners
>
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[Haskell-begin] Re: New List

Benjamin L. Russell
On Tue, 22 Jul 2008 13:49:19 +0300, "Angelos Sphyris"
<[hidden email]> wrote:

>I believe that using [hidden email] and [Haskell-begin] in the subject line may confuse people.
>So, I would opt for [Haskell-beginners].

Thank you for your response.

While I agree for this exact reason, since some users had voiced the
view that "[Haskell-beginners]" seemed too long, I would rather wait
for a few days to see the overall response to the argument (it is
possible that some readers may have been too busy to check this thread
lately).

If "[Haskell-beginners]" seems acceptable as a prefix for the subject
line to readers of this mailing list, let's try it out to see if it
works (we can always change it back).  Otherwise, we'll just continue
using "[Haskell-begin]."

I would suggest at least trying out "[Haskell-beginners]" on a few
threads for a few days to see if it can work.  Otherwise, we will
never know.  If readers then start complaining "I can't stand the new
prefix, because now I can't read the subject line well in my narrow
mail tool/newsreader window," then I'll change it back right away.
Then we'll know for sure.  Some users may actually prefer the new
prefix.

I'll wait for about three days to see the response to this argument on
this thread before actually changing anything, unless readers say that
trying out the new prefix is not acceptable.

-- Benjamin L. Russell

12