New look for haskell.org: MediaWiki

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RE: Re: haskell.org Public Domain

Simon Peyton Jones
I'm no expert on licenses, but I'd like to say what I hope we can
achieve

GOALS

A) It should be easy for people to contribute to the Wiki.
   In particular, it should be easy for multiple people to contribute
   to a single Wiki page, so that the question "who is the author"
   has (by design) no clear answer.

B) It should be easy to use material taken from the Wiki:
        i) it should be easy to know what the license is
        ii) the license should make it easy to use the material

To me B(i) suggests that we should avoid a multiplicity of licenses.
Having a different license per-page would be bad enough, but the
multiple-authorship of a Wiki means that we could end up with different
licenses for different bits of the same page.

My suggestion would be

* One license for the Wiki.  If a contributor wants to put up material
with a different license, then link to it as Udo suggested.  (This also
makes it clear that the link is to material that is not to be edited by
others, whereas by definition the entire Wiki actively solicits editing
by others.)

* That license should be maximally permissive.  Anything viral defeats
B(ii).  Preferably even more permissive than BSD (e.g. no obligation to
display a copyright notice.  Who would the copyright notice be *to*?)
I'm not fussy about the details.  Just some way of saying "You can do
what you like with this material".

Simon


| -----Original Message-----
| From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]]
On Behalf Of Wolfgang
| Jeltsch
| Sent: 10 January 2006 22:30
| To: [hidden email]
| Subject: Re: [Haskell] Re: haskell.org Public Domain
|
| Am Dienstag, 10. Januar 2006 23:03 schrieb John Meacham:
| > [...]
|
| > I would say something like 'contributions and any derivations must
be
| > usable for any purpose by anyone in perpetuity without restriction'
so
| > that public domain, BSD, or the GHC license are all fine.
|
| First, the GHC license is a BSD-style license as far as I know.
Second,
| BSD-style licenses have restrictions.  The restriction I remember is
that
| derivative works have to include the original copyright notice, the
| disclaimer, etc.
|
| If we do as you propose, different licenses could be chosen and the
"user"
| wouldn't know what the exact licensing terms of this or that article
are.  I
| think, it is better to choose one permissive license for all the
content.
|
| > [...]
|
| >         John
|
| Best wishes,
| Wolfgang
| _______________________________________________
| Haskell mailing list
| [hidden email]
| http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell
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Re: haskell.org Public Domain

Ashley Yakeley
In article
<[hidden email]
ft.com>,
 "Simon Peyton-Jones" <[hidden email]> wrote:

> My suggestion would be
>
> * One license for the Wiki.  If a contributor wants to put up material
> with a different license, then link to it as Udo suggested.  (This also
> makes it clear that the link is to material that is not to be edited by
> others, whereas by definition the entire Wiki actively solicits editing
> by others.)
>
> * That license should be maximally permissive.  Anything viral defeats
> B(ii).  Preferably even more permissive than BSD (e.g. no obligation to
> display a copyright notice.  Who would the copyright notice be *to*?)
> I'm not fussy about the details.  Just some way of saying "You can do
> what you like with this material".

I think we're going for public domain, assuming we can also add text to
satisfy German law, etc. The [[Project:Copyrights]] page will have the
statement.

The big question is the "one license" thing. Some people think other
licenses should be allowed, provided they're marked on the page.

<http://haskell.org/haskellwiki/HaskellWiki:Community_Portal#Mandatory.2F
Optional_license_straw_poll>

--
Ashley Yakeley, Seattle WA

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Re: Re: haskell.org Public Domain

Ketil Malde-2
In reply to this post by Wolfgang Jeltsch
Wolfgang Jeltsch <[hidden email]> writes:

>>> Thinking about the subject matter is
>>> hard enough, thinking about creating licensing pitfalls is best left to
>>> lawyers and other parasi^W specialists.

The problem is that lawyers are thinking about pitfalls for you to
fall into.  Discussing licensing for a community effort like a
wiki may seem a pedantic excercise bordering on the absurd, but it might
avoid trouble later.

>> or should we allow people to add notices to pages for other licenses?

> Maybe we should start with forcing everything on the wiki to be licensed under
> a permissive license.

The problem with allowing multiple licensing is that it can quickly
get muddled as things get copied around.  I would prefer a single (very
permissive) license covering the whole wiki, and linking out to a
different site for differently licensed material.

(The license should encourage, and possibly require, attribution to
the wiki rather than individual authors - I think it is important to
de-emphasize individual ownership as much as possible - cf. previous
discussions)

-k
--
If I haven't seen further, it is by standing in the footprints of giants

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Re: Re: haskell.org Public Domain

Glynn Clements
In reply to this post by Ashley Yakeley

Ashley Yakeley wrote:

> I think we're going for public domain, assuming we can also add text to
> satisfy German law, etc.

AIUI, the main problem with the notion of "public domain" under
typical European copyright law is that authors have moral rights (e.g.
the right of attribution and to prohibit "defacement") which are
inalienable, i.e. any statement waiving or rescinding such rights is
void and unenforceable. IOW, no matter what language the licence uses,
the author retains the right to sue for violations of their moral
rights.

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Re: Re: haskell.org Public Domain

Wolfgang Jeltsch
In reply to this post by Simon Peyton Jones
Am Mittwoch, 11. Januar 2006 05:38 schrieben Sie:
> [...]

> My suggestion would be
>
> * One license for the Wiki.  If a contributor wants to put up material
> with a different license, then link to it as Udo suggested.  (This also
> makes it clear that the link is to material that is not to be edited by
> others, whereas by definition the entire Wiki actively solicits editing
> by others.)
>
> * That license should be maximally permissive.  Anything viral defeats
> B(ii).  Preferably even more permissive than BSD (e.g. no obligation to
> display a copyright notice.  Who would the copyright notice be *to*?)
> I'm not fussy about the details.  Just some way of saying "You can do
> what you like with this material".

Your proposal sounds good.

Yes, BSD might be too "restrictive".  So let's put every wiki content under a
very permissive license like the one Udo proposed.  Opinions?

> Simon

Best wishes,
Wolfgang
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Re: Re: haskell.org Public Domain

Wolfgang Jeltsch
In reply to this post by Ashley Yakeley
Am Mittwoch, 11. Januar 2006 07:17 schrieb Ashley Yakeley:

> In article
> <[hidden email]
> ft.com>,
>
>  "Simon Peyton-Jones" <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > My suggestion would be
> >
> > * One license for the Wiki.  If a contributor wants to put up material
> > with a different license, then link to it as Udo suggested.  (This also
> > makes it clear that the link is to material that is not to be edited by
> > others, whereas by definition the entire Wiki actively solicits editing
> > by others.)
> >
> > * That license should be maximally permissive.  Anything viral defeats
> > B(ii).  Preferably even more permissive than BSD (e.g. no obligation to
> > display a copyright notice.  Who would the copyright notice be *to*?)
> > I'm not fussy about the details.  Just some way of saying "You can do
> > what you like with this material".
>
> I think we're going for public domain, assuming we can also add text to
> satisfy German law, etc. The [[Project:Copyrights]] page will have the
> statement.

I cannot see why we should create problems for people like me if we can make
live so much simpler with using a very permissive license instead of public
domain.  What does public domain give you what the very permissive license
doesn't?

> [...]

> <http://haskell.org/haskellwiki/HaskellWiki:Community_Portal#Mandatory.2F
> Optional_license_straw_poll>

Where can I get an account for the wiki?  I don't want my IP address to appear
in some history.  Or isn't the wiki configured to store IP addresses like
Wikipedia does?

By the way, why aren't there any links like "Discussion" and "Edit" on the top
of the page?

Best wishes,
Wolfgang
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Re: Re: New look for haskell.org: MediaWiki

Malcolm Wallace
In reply to this post by Ashley Yakeley
> > Is there a way to typeset Haskell syntax yet?
>
> Not yet, but someone could write an extension to do that...
> <http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Extending_wiki_markup>

Looks like it would be easy to call out to hscolour:
    http://www.cs.york.ac.uk/fp/darcs/hscolour
provided only that there is some way to call an external (Haskell)
program from within PHP?

Regards,
    Malcolm
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Re: haskell.org Public Domain

Ashley Yakeley
In reply to this post by Wolfgang Jeltsch
In article <[hidden email]>,
 Wolfgang Jeltsch <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Where can I get an account for the wiki?

Click on "Log in" at the bottom-right hand corner of the page.

>  I don't want my IP address to
> appear
> in some history.  Or isn't the wiki configured to store IP addresses like
> Wikipedia does?

Anonymous uses can't edit (following the practice of hawiki). AFAIK IP
addresses are not stored at all, but I haven't examined the code for
this.

> By the way, why aren't there any links like "Discussion" and "Edit" on the
> top of the page?

They're at the bottom of the page. I tried to make the default "skin" as
quiet as possible. Once you log in, you can use a different skin, or
switch on the "quickbar".

--
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Re: haskell.org Public Domain

Ashley Yakeley
In reply to this post by Wolfgang Jeltsch
Wolfgang Jeltsch wrote:

> Yes, BSD might be too "restrictive".  So let's put every wiki content under a
> very permissive license like the one Udo proposed.  Opinions?

Presumably a very permissive license might include the phrase "public
domain" in any case? Does anyone want to draw one up?

--
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Re: Re: haskell.org Public Domain

Wolfgang Jeltsch
In reply to this post by Ashley Yakeley
Am Mittwoch, 11. Januar 2006 19:19 schrieb Ashley Yakeley:
> [...]

> AFAIK IP addresses are not stored at all, but I haven't examined the code
> for this.

Hello Ashley,

Wikipedia stores and displays IP addresses if the user which did the edit
wasn't logged in.

> [...]

Best wishes,
Wolfgang
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Re: haskell.org Public Domain

Ashley Yakeley
Wolfgang Jeltsch wrote:

> Wikipedia stores and displays IP addresses if the user which did the edit
> wasn't logged in.

This is disabled in HaskellWiki; you have to log in to edit. I did this
because hawiki apparently had had some problems with vandalism and had
done the same thing.

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Re: haskell.org Public Domain

Ashley Yakeley
In reply to this post by Ashley Yakeley
I wrote:
> Wolfgang Jeltsch wrote:
>
>> Yes, BSD might be too "restrictive".  So let's put every wiki content
>> under a very permissive license like the one Udo proposed.  Opinions?
>
>
> Presumably a very permissive license might include the phrase "public
> domain" in any case? Does anyone want to draw one up?

How about this one (from
<http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Donate_to_the_public_domain>)?

"I, the creator of this work, hereby release it into the public domain.
This applies worldwide.

"In case this is not legally possible:

"I grant anyone the right to use this work for any purpose, without any
conditions, unless such conditions are required by law."

I'd rather use this than attempt to draw up my own.

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Re: haskell.org Public Domain

Ashley Yakeley
In reply to this post by Simon Peyton Jones
Simon Peyton-Jones wrote:

> * One license for the Wiki.  If a contributor wants to put up material
> with a different license, then link to it as Udo suggested.  (This also
> makes it clear that the link is to material that is not to be edited by
> others, whereas by definition the entire Wiki actively solicits editing
> by others.)
>
> * That license should be maximally permissive.  Anything viral defeats
> B(ii).  Preferably even more permissive than BSD (e.g. no obligation to
> display a copyright notice.  Who would the copyright notice be *to*?)
> I'm not fussy about the details.  Just some way of saying "You can do
> what you like with this material".

We won't be able to include the Haskell 98 Report on the wiki (which is
intended to replace the entire haskell.org site) because it has a more
restrictive license.

--
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Re: Re: haskell.org Public Domain

Neil Mitchell
> We won't be able to include the Haskell 98 Report on the wiki (which is
> intended to replace the entire haskell.org site) because it has a more
> restrictive license.

At the same time, we probably don't want people editing the haskell
report! As such, a link from the wiki is probably better.

Thanks

Neil
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Re: haskell.org Public Domain

Ashley Yakeley
Neil Mitchell wrote:
>>We won't be able to include the Haskell 98 Report on the wiki (which is
>>intended to replace the entire haskell.org site) because it has a more
>>restrictive license.
>
>
> At the same time, we probably don't want people editing the haskell
> report! As such, a link from the wiki is probably better.

A link from the wiki to where? The wiki is supposed to take over the
haskell.org site. But maybe we can still have directories that are not
part of the wiki.

--
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Re: Re: haskell.org Public Domain

Neil Mitchell
> A link from the wiki to where? The wiki is supposed to take over the
> haskell.org site. But maybe we can still have directories that are not
> part of the wiki.

Some of the pages on the Haskell site simply *can't* be moved over to
the wiki, Hoogle <http://haskell.org/hoogle/> springs to mind, given
that its a server side application.

Thanks

Neil
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Re: Re: haskell.org Public Domain

ajb@spamcop.net
In reply to this post by Wolfgang Jeltsch
G'day all.

Quoting Wolfgang Jeltsch <[hidden email]>:

> Yes, BSD might be too "restrictive".  So let's put every wiki content under a
> very permissive license like the one Udo proposed.  Opinions?

I agree.  Does such a licence already exist?

If not, I'd suggest taking the Creative Commons "by" licence and removing
the "by" requirement.  Or asking them if they have such a thing already
drafted.

Cheers,
Andrew Bromage
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Re: haskell.org Public Domain

Ashley Yakeley
In article <[hidden email]>,
 [hidden email] wrote:

> G'day all.
>
> Quoting Wolfgang Jeltsch <[hidden email]>:
>
> > Yes, BSD might be too "restrictive".  So let's put every wiki content under
> > a
> > very permissive license like the one Udo proposed.  Opinions?
>
> I agree.  Does such a licence already exist?
>
> If not, I'd suggest taking the Creative Commons "by" licence and removing
> the "by" requirement.  Or asking them if they have such a thing already
> drafted.

What about this one?

<http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Donate_to_the_public_domain>

"I, the creator of this work, hereby release it into the public domain.
This applies worldwide.

"In case this is not legally possible:

"I grant anyone the right to use this work for any purpose, without any
conditions, unless such conditions are required by law."

--
Ashley Yakeley, Seattle WA

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Re: Re: haskell.org Public Domain

ajb@spamcop.net
G'day all.

Quoting Ashley Yakeley <[hidden email]>:

> What about this one?
>
> <http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Donate_to_the_public_domain>
>
> "I, the creator of this work, hereby release it into the public domain.
> This applies worldwide.
>
> "In case this is not legally possible:
>
> "I grant anyone the right to use this work for any purpose, without any
> conditions, unless such conditions are required by law."

That sounds good to me.

Cheers,
Andrew Bromage
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Re: haskell.org Public Domain

Scott Turner-4
In reply to this post by Ashley Yakeley
On 2006 January 11 Wednesday 18:52, Ashley Yakeley wrote:

> How about this one (from
> <http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Donate_to_the_public_domain>)?
>
> "I, the creator of this work, hereby release it into the public domain.
> This applies worldwide.
>
> "In case this is not legally possible:
>
> "I grant anyone the right to use this work for any purpose, without any
> conditions, unless such conditions are required by law."

That looks very good.

I wonder, though, whether adding a disclaimer is needed. If you take the "by"
out of the Creative Commons license, as ajb suggested, then the major feature
remaining is the disclaimer. Along with that is verbiage which makes the
license much longer in order to require that the license remains associated
with the "work".
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