Proposal: New mailing lists -- haskell-jobs & haskell-academia

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Proposal: New mailing lists -- haskell-jobs & haskell-academia

Alexander Berntsen
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The proposal is simply as follows.

1. Make a list, haskell-jobs. This would be primarily for job postings
and looking-for-job posts. A secondary purpose is discussing jobs.
E.g. "Anyone know any jobs in the Foo area?", and meta-discussions
like "How well does Haskell jobs pay in your experience?".

2. Make a list, haskell-academia. This would be primarily for
studentship postings and call for papers. A secondary purpose is
discussing academia. E.g. "Anyone know any unis that use Haskell
extensively in the Foo area?", and meta-discussions like "How well is
Haskell taught at unis in your experience?"


The motivation for this is twofold.

1. We get a lot of job postings and studentship postings. Many of
these will be ignored by readers, up until they suddenly find
themselves looking for a job or studentship. It would be useful if
they could then easily filter their email on lists -- or go to the
online archives for that specific list. The latter is a big Win,
because they needn't even be subscribed in the first place.

2. Job/studentship postings are effectively spam, unless you are
actually looking for that kind of information. This proposal will
reduce the amount of spam people get. That's always nice.


Two weeks should be a satisfactory discussion period.
- --
Alexander
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Re: Proposal: New mailing lists -- haskell-jobs & haskell-academia

Roman Cheplyaka-2
-1.

I doubt all the people who are interested will subscribe to these lists.

Thus people will have to cross-post to those list and haskell-cafe, just like
it's happening with [hidden email] right now.

I don't mind seeing occasional job and academic ads here.

Roman

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Re: Proposal: New mailing lists -- haskell-jobs & haskell-academia

Alexander Berntsen
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On 03/07/14 16:25, Roman Cheplyaka wrote:
> I doubt all the people who are interested will subscribe to these
> lists.
I don't have data to argue for or against this.

> Thus people will have to cross-post to those list and haskell-cafe,
>  just like it's happening with [hidden email] right now.
This should be considered frowned upon if this proposal goes through.

> I don't mind seeing occasional job and academic ads here.
For what it's worth: I don't either. I'm actually interested in seeing
what's going on in these circles. But I follow quite a few lists, and
I a lot of the stuff I see on those lists *is* annoying to me. So I
imagine some people, who like me subscribe to a lot of lists, are
annoyed by the ads here.

But really, that is a minor point. The primary advantage is in my
opinion the ability to filter email.

And a point I forgot to make in that regard is for people who *are*
looking for jobs presently. It would be good if they could efficiently
filter these postings.

And another related point is that *I* sure wouldn't mind being able to
get ads in digests, whilst following the café normally.
- --
Alexander
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Re: Proposal: New mailing lists -- haskell-jobs & haskell-academia

Roman Cheplyaka-2
Yeah, I know this sounds like a great idea in theory.

I'm just saying that we have something very similar with [hidden email],
and it's not working, for various social reasons.

Roman

* Alexander Berntsen <[hidden email]> [2014-07-03 19:55:22+0200]

> On 03/07/14 16:25, Roman Cheplyaka wrote:
> > I doubt all the people who are interested will subscribe to these
> > lists.
> I don't have data to argue for or against this.
>
> > Thus people will have to cross-post to those list and haskell-cafe,
> >  just like it's happening with [hidden email] right now.
> This should be considered frowned upon if this proposal goes through.
>
> > I don't mind seeing occasional job and academic ads here.
> For what it's worth: I don't either. I'm actually interested in seeing
> what's going on in these circles. But I follow quite a few lists, and
> I a lot of the stuff I see on those lists *is* annoying to me. So I
> imagine some people, who like me subscribe to a lot of lists, are
> annoyed by the ads here.
>
> But really, that is a minor point. The primary advantage is in my
> opinion the ability to filter email.
>
> And a point I forgot to make in that regard is for people who *are*
> looking for jobs presently. It would be good if they could efficiently
> filter these postings.
>
> And another related point is that *I* sure wouldn't mind being able to
> get ads in digests, whilst following the café normally.
> --
> Alexander
> [hidden email]
> https://secure.plaimi.net/~alexander

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Re: Proposal: New mailing lists -- haskell-jobs & haskell-academia

Alexander Berntsen
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On 03/07/14 20:24, Roman Cheplyaka wrote:
> I'm just saying that we have something very similar with
> [hidden email], and it's not working, for various social
> reasons.
I disagree. I think the amount of cross-posting is quite low.
Furthermore, if it's happening -- it's happening because we allow it,
by not penalising cross-posting. This could be done.
- --
Alexander
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Re: Proposal: New mailing lists -- haskell-jobs & haskell-academia

Carter Schonwald
could you take this bikeshedding about things that aren't haskell to a different list please :)


On Thu, Jul 3, 2014 at 3:23 PM, Alexander Berntsen <[hidden email]> wrote:
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On 03/07/14 20:24, Roman Cheplyaka wrote:
> I'm just saying that we have something very similar with
> [hidden email], and it's not working, for various social
> reasons.
I disagree. I think the amount of cross-posting is quite low.
Furthermore, if it's happening -- it's happening because we allow it,
by not penalising cross-posting. This could be done.
- --
Alexander
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Re: Proposal: New mailing lists -- haskell-jobs & haskell-academia

Felipe Lessa
In reply to this post by Roman Cheplyaka-2
I agree with Roman here.  It'd make no sense to post a job listing to a
mailing list that has 10% of the audience of the cafe.

--
Felipe.


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Re: Proposal: New mailing lists -- haskell-jobs & haskell-academia

Alan Pogrebinschi
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If the ability to filter is the goal, it may be accomplished within a
single list, by having a rule to tag subjects with [Job] or
[Academic], as appropriate.
Then if you care about either of those you can quickly scan for them,
and if you see those as spam you can easily set email filters to avoid
ever seeing them. The default would be current state of affairs.

On 07/03/2014 04:42 PM, Felipe Lessa wrote:
> I agree with Roman here.  It'd make no sense to post a job listing
> to a mailing list that has 10% of the audience of the cafe.
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________ Haskell-Cafe
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> http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
>
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Re: Proposal: New mailing lists -- haskell-jobs & haskell-academia

Alexander Berntsen
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On 03/07/14 21:49, Alan Pogrebinschi wrote:
> If the ability to filter is the goal, it may be accomplished within
> a single list, by having a rule to tag subjects with [Job] or
> [Academic], as appropriate.
If nobody likes the proposal, this would be a nice middle-road. So +1
from me.
- --
Alexander
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Re: Proposal: New mailing lists -- haskell-jobs & haskell-academia

Alexander Berntsen
In reply to this post by Carter Schonwald
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On 03/07/14 21:38, Carter Schonwald wrote:
> could you take this bikeshedding about things that aren't haskell
> to a different list please :)
If it is inappropriate to discuss this here, where is this best
discussed then?
- --
Alexander
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Re: Proposal: New mailing lists -- haskell-jobs & haskell-academia

Richard A. O'Keefe
In reply to this post by Alexander Berntsen
On 4/07/2014, at 1:33 AM, Alexander Berntsen wrote:
[proposing two additional lists]

-1 from me.  The number of postings that would be in those
lists is a small fraction of the number of spam messages I
get despite the University's filtering.  This is a heavy-
handed solution to a non-problem.

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Re: Proposal: New mailing lists -- haskell-jobs & haskell-academia

Ben Gamari-2
In reply to this post by Alexander Berntsen
On July 3, 2014 4:19:35 PM EDT, Alexander Berntsen <[hidden email]> wrote:
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>
>On 03/07/14 21:38, Carter Schonwald wrote:
>> could you take this bikeshedding about things that aren't haskell
>> to a different list please :)
>If it is inappropriate to discuss this here, where is this best
>discussed then?

I believe Carter was just making a joke although it can be tough to tell over such a lossy medium.

With respect to the proposal, I agree with others that while splitting the list looks good on paper, in practice people will likely just continue posting where they can get the largest audience unless there are significant disincentives to doing so. Frankly, I don't find the traffic generated by any of the Haskell lists to be onerous so enforcing such disincentives doesn't seem worth the friction they might give rise to. -1 from me.

Cheers,

- Ben
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Re: Proposal: New mailing lists -- haskell-jobs & haskell-academia

Jose A. Lopes
I agree with Ben.

People will just keep posting where they get the most audience. It won't make a difference. Besides, the mail subject for a job posting is in most
cases enough to simply skip the email, in case you are not interested
in job postings (or studentships).

-1


On Fri, Jul 4, 2014 at 2:43 PM, Ben Gamari <[hidden email]> wrote:
On July 3, 2014 4:19:35 PM EDT, Alexander Berntsen <[hidden email]> wrote:
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>Hash: SHA256
>
>On 03/07/14 21:38, Carter Schonwald wrote:
>> could you take this bikeshedding about things that aren't haskell
>> to a different list please :)
>If it is inappropriate to discuss this here, where is this best
>discussed then?

I believe Carter was just making a joke although it can be tough to tell over such a lossy medium.

With respect to the proposal, I agree with others that while splitting the list looks good on paper, in practice people will likely just continue posting where they can get the largest audience unless there are significant disincentives to doing so. Frankly, I don't find the traffic generated by any of the Haskell lists to be onerous so enforcing such disincentives doesn't seem worth the friction they might give rise to. -1 from me.

Cheers,

- Ben
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