Remove eq and show from num class

Previous Topic Next Topic
 
classic Classic list List threaded Threaded
28 messages Options
12
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Remove eq and show from num class

Carter Schonwald
All yays from committee members please reply with yes to this email :) 

-Carter 

_______________________________________________
Haskell-prime mailing list
[hidden email]
http://mail.haskell.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/haskell-prime
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Remove eq and show from num class

Cale Gibbard
If you don't do it, the Report will just be inaccurate.

On Thu, 7 Sep 2017 at 11:43 Carter Schonwald <[hidden email]> wrote:
All yays from committee members please reply with yes to this email :) 

-Carter 
_______________________________________________
Haskell-prime mailing list
[hidden email]
http://mail.haskell.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/haskell-prime

_______________________________________________
Haskell-prime mailing list
[hidden email]
http://mail.haskell.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/haskell-prime
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Remove eq and show from num class

Herbert Valerio Riedel-3
In reply to this post by Carter Schonwald
"yes" :-)

Btw, here's an old commit which updates the class diagram to this
effect for the report:

https://github.com/hvr/haskell-report/commit/339ea257ee8b0451fbba388480566efac6ecbbd3

On Thu, Sep 7, 2017 at 5:43 PM, Carter Schonwald
<[hidden email]> wrote:
> All yays from committee members please reply with yes to this email :)
>
> -Carter
>
> _______________________________________________
> Haskell-prime mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://mail.haskell.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/haskell-prime
>
_______________________________________________
Haskell-prime mailing list
[hidden email]
http://mail.haskell.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/haskell-prime
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Remove eq and show from num class

Mario Blazevic-2
In reply to this post by Carter Schonwald
On Thu, Sep 7, 2017 at 11:43 AM, Carter Schonwald <[hidden email]> wrote:
All yays from committee members please reply with yes to this email :) 

Yes please.
 


_______________________________________________
Haskell-prime mailing list
[hidden email]
http://mail.haskell.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/haskell-prime
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Remove eq and show from num class

Mario Blazevic-2
In reply to this post by Herbert Valerio Riedel-3
On Thu, Sep 7, 2017 at 11:47 AM, Herbert Valerio Riedel <[hidden email]> wrote:
"yes" :-)

Btw, here's an old commit which updates the class diagram to this
effect for the report:

https://github.com/hvr/haskell-report/commit/339ea257ee8b0451fbba388480566efac6ecbbd3


Ha, I wasn't aware of that repository. We agreed today to move the report itself to the https://github.com/haskell/rfcs/ repository. Should we move the build system around it as well? I'd say probably not, leave the haskell/haskell-report repository the canonical one and update it from haskell/rfcs/ once we're ready to publish. I wish GitHub made it possible to symlink files in two repositories like this.


_______________________________________________
Haskell-prime mailing list
[hidden email]
http://mail.haskell.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/haskell-prime
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Remove eq and show from num class

Herbert Valerio Riedel-3
Hello!

On 2017-09-07 at 18:16:39 +0200, Mario Blazevic wrote:
>> Btw, here's an old commit which updates the class diagram to this
>> effect for the report:
>>
>> https://github.com/hvr/haskell-report/commit/
>> 339ea257ee8b0451fbba388480566efac6ecbbd3
>>
> Ha, I wasn't aware of that repository.

I set up the hvr/haskell-report fork[1] shortly after I migrated and set
up the haskell/haskell-report repo back in 2015 to serve as an "updated"
inofficial Haskell201x report...

While looking through the report it became apparent to me that more
updates may be needed, and that a new Haskell Prime committee was needed
because such an inofficial Haskell report wouldn't provide the desired
authority of a properly produced language standard, and you know the
rest... :-)

> We agreed today to move the report itself to the
> https://github.com/haskell/rfcs/ repository.

Ok, so how does this change the procedure described at

  https://github.com/haskell/rfcs/blob/master/README.rst#successful-proposals

?

And what is the intended relationship between the haskell/rfcs and the
haskell/haskell-report repos?

> Should we move the build system around it as well? I'd say probably
> not, leave the haskell/haskell-report repository the canonical one and
> update it from haskell/rfcs/ once we're ready to publish.

Well, depends... the build-system is a bit incomplete as it only tests
that TeX still builds, the intention was to provide a CI system which
publishes its draft aftifacts somewhere for convenient previewing. And
if I understand this correctly, you intend to have RFCs be accompanied
by deltas to the report in the same repository; and if that's the case I
think the build-system makes a lot of sense to duplicate in the
haskell/rfcs repo.

If the report was written in reStructuredText we could simply use
something like the readthedocs.org service. But since it's LaTeX, we
have to do a little bit more work to publishes ("deploys" in newspeak)
.pdf drafts somewhere else, but it's doable.

I can take care to set it up, if it's clear what kind of CI/CD we want.

> I wish GitHub made it possible to symlink files in two repositories
> like this.

I wouldn't worry too much about that... we can cross that bridge when
we're close to a report worth publishing :-)


Cheers,
  HVR
_______________________________________________
Haskell-prime mailing list
[hidden email]
http://mail.haskell.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/haskell-prime
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Remove eq and show from num class

Richard Eisenberg-4
In reply to this post by Carter Schonwald
I don't mean to be a killjoy, but I think even something as simple as this should have a proposal. We still have to draft the changes to the Report associated with this change, and at least one is non-obvious: now numeric literals induce an Eq constraint (which should be mentioned). I'm certainly not against this change, but I don't think it's as easy as this.

Richard

> On Sep 7, 2017, at 4:43 PM, Carter Schonwald <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> All yays from committee members please reply with yes to this email :)
>
> -Carter
> _______________________________________________
> Haskell-prime mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://mail.haskell.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/haskell-prime

_______________________________________________
Haskell-prime mailing list
[hidden email]
http://mail.haskell.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/haskell-prime
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Remove eq and show from num class

Mario Blazevic-2
On Thu, Sep 7, 2017 at 6:20 PM, Richard Eisenberg <[hidden email]> wrote:
I don't mean to be a killjoy, but I think even something as simple as this should have a proposal. We still have to draft the changes to the Report associated with this change, and at least one is non-obvious: now numeric literals induce an Eq constraint (which should be mentioned). I'm certainly not against this change, but I don't think it's as easy as this.

I agree. I just I thought it was implicit that every change to the report goes throught a pull request, which is the same as a proposal. Were you volunteering for something else, Carter?


_______________________________________________
Haskell-prime mailing list
[hidden email]
http://mail.haskell.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/haskell-prime
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Remove eq and show from num class

Mario Blazevic-2
In reply to this post by Herbert Valerio Riedel-3
Sending to the mailing list instead of to Herbert alone...

On Thu, Sep 7, 2017 at 2:20 PM, Herbert Valerio Riedel <[hidden email]> wrote:

Hello!

On 2017-09-07 at 18:16:39 +0200, Mario Blazevic wrote:
>> Btw, here's an old commit which updates the class diagram to this
>> effect for the report:
>>
>> https://github.com/hvr/haskell-report/commit/
>> 339ea257ee8b0451fbba388480566efac6ecbbd3
>>
> Ha, I wasn't aware of that repository.

I set up the hvr/haskell-report fork[1] shortly after I migrated and set
up the haskell/haskell-report repo back in 2015 to serve as an "updated"
inofficial Haskell201x report...

While looking through the report it became apparent to me that more
updates may be needed, and that a new Haskell Prime committee was needed
because such an inofficial Haskell report wouldn't provide the desired
authority of a properly produced language standard, and you know the
rest... :-)

That looks farsighted for sure.
 


> We agreed today to move the report itself to the
> https://github.com/haskell/rfcs/ repository.

Ok, so how does this change the procedure described at

  https://github.com/haskell/rfcs/blob/master/README.rst#successful-proposals

?

I think the only necessary change is to the strangely worded clause
  • No one is appointed responsible for actually implementing the change, in particular neither the shepherd nor the author of the proposal.

I'd go with some alternative wording like

  • The successful proposal should include a complete delta to the text of The Haskell Report that can be automatically merged.
 

And what is the intended relationship between the haskell/rfcs and the
haskell/haskell-report repos?

> Should we move the build system around it as well? I'd say probably
> not, leave the haskell/haskell-report repository the canonical one and
> update it from haskell/rfcs/ once we're ready to publish.

Well, depends... the build-system is a bit incomplete as it only tests
that TeX still builds, the intention was to provide a CI system which
publishes its draft aftifacts somewhere for convenient previewing. And
if I understand this correctly, you intend to have RFCs be accompanied
by deltas to the report in the same repository; and if that's the case I
think the build-system makes a lot of sense to duplicate in the
haskell/rfcs repo.

I'm not familiar with the build system, so I'll trust your judgement on this. The only reason for my earlier choice is that haskell/haskell-report sounds like a proper cannonical place for the official Haskell Report, much more so than haskell/rfcs.

 
If the report was written in reStructuredText we could simply use
something like the readthedocs.org service. But since it's LaTeX, we
have to do a little bit more work to publishes ("deploys" in newspeak)
.pdf drafts somewhere else, but it's doable.
I can take care to set it up, if it's clear what kind of CI/CD we want.

Is the current publishing system really that difficult? To my grizzled ears, this sounds like you're fishing for a volunteer to translate LaTeX to ReST. I'd actually be willing to do that, as I have plenty of experience with text transformations, but I'd need a buy-in from everybody.



> I wish GitHub made it possible to symlink files in two repositories
> like this.

I wouldn't worry too much about that... we can cross that bridge when
we're close to a report worth publishing :-)

Cheers,
  HVR




_______________________________________________
Haskell-prime mailing list
[hidden email]
http://mail.haskell.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/haskell-prime
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Remove eq and show from num class

Carter Schonwald
In reply to this post by Mario Blazevic-2
well sure, i'm happy to write the 3 line diff, but because of the sheer unambiguity of this i'd rather get the votes on email before botthering to write the diff, at which point the main question is whether i wrote the diff correctly


please say yes or no. its quite easy with email . i'm not going to write that little proposal if folks wont accept it :)

On Thu, Sep 7, 2017 at 11:44 PM, Mario Blazevic <[hidden email]> wrote:
On Thu, Sep 7, 2017 at 6:20 PM, Richard Eisenberg <[hidden email]> wrote:
I don't mean to be a killjoy, but I think even something as simple as this should have a proposal. We still have to draft the changes to the Report associated with this change, and at least one is non-obvious: now numeric literals induce an Eq constraint (which should be mentioned). I'm certainly not against this change, but I don't think it's as easy as this.

I agree. I just I thought it was implicit that every change to the report goes throught a pull request, which is the same as a proposal. Were you volunteering for something else, Carter?



_______________________________________________
Haskell-prime mailing list
[hidden email]
http://mail.haskell.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/haskell-prime
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Remove eq and show from num class

Henrik Nilsson-2
On 09/08/2017 12:45 AM, Carter Schonwald wrote:
> please say yes or no. its quite easy with email . i'm not going to write
> that little proposal if folks wont accept it :)

I'd love to see those constraints go. But it is important that the full
ramifications are clearly articulated.

Best,

/Henrik





This message and any attachment are intended solely for the addressee
and may contain confidential information. If you have received this
message in error, please send it back to me, and immediately delete it.

Please do not use, copy or disclose the information contained in this
message or in any attachment.  Any views or opinions expressed by the
author of this email do not necessarily reflect the views of the
University of Nottingham.

This message has been checked for viruses but the contents of an
attachment may still contain software viruses which could damage your
computer system, you are advised to perform your own checks. Email
communications with the University of Nottingham may be monitored as
permitted by UK legislation.

_______________________________________________
Haskell-prime mailing list
[hidden email]
http://mail.haskell.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/haskell-prime
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Remove eq and show from num class

AntC
In reply to this post by Carter Schonwald
I'm baffled. Is this some sort of 'in' joke at ICFP?
Then remember the rest of the world can see this list.

> All yays from committee members please reply with yes to
this email :)

If this is to the committee, shouldn't it be on the
committee list?
(I mean ghc-steering-committee.)

Or is there some other committee? I thought the
Haskell-prime forum and process
 was dead/replaced by the github proposals process?

If there is a serious proposal, please explain what it is
and what is the motivation.
At risk of me sounding like a complete dork: I find it
rather useful
that I can compare numbers for equality and show them.
(That is, without having to write my own instances.)

AntC

_______________________________________________
Haskell-prime mailing list
[hidden email]
http://mail.haskell.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/haskell-prime
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Remove eq and show from num class

Mario Blazevic-2

On Fri, Sep 8, 2017 at 3:19 AM, Anthony Clayden <[hidden email]> wrote:
I'm baffled. Is this some sort of 'in' joke at ICFP?
Then remember the rest of the world can see this list.

> All yays from committee members please reply with yes to
this email :)

If this is to the committee, shouldn't it be on the
committee list?
(I mean ghc-steering-committee.)

Or is there some other committee? I thought the
Haskell-prime forum and process
 was dead/replaced by the github proposals process?

It's complementary to the GitHub repo. It seemed easier to discuss general things via e-mail.
 

At risk of me sounding like a complete dork: I find it
rather useful
that I can compare numbers for equality and show them.
(That is, without having to write my own instances.)

All the standard instances of Num do have instances for Eq, Ord, and other usual classes. If you mean that you're comparing a parametric Num a => a, you'll be disappointed when you upgrade to GHC 7.4.1:

https://downloads.haskell.org/~ghc/7.4.1/docs/html/users_guide/release-7-4-1.html
 


_______________________________________________
Haskell-prime mailing list
[hidden email]
http://mail.haskell.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/haskell-prime
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Remove eq and show from num class

Nathan van Doorn
In reply to this post by AntC
Anthony, this proposal is to remove the Eq and Show constraints from the Num class. Specific instances of Num, like Int and Float, will still have those instances. This has been how it is in GHC for a long time now, so it really is a matter for the Haskell' committee rather than one of the GHC committees.

The motivation is that there are many types with sensible definitions for addition and multiplication etc that can't be instances of Eq or Show, for example functions to numbers (allowing us to write "sin + cos" instead of "\x -> sin x + cos X") or arbitrary real numbers (where comparison isn't necessarily computable).

I'm not sure why this is being discussed on the mailing list rather than the Github proposals thing, but I do know that that has grown somewhat inactive and this is as good as anything for getting the Haskell' committee to make a final judgement.

Nathan

On 8 Sep 2017 8:35 am, "Anthony Clayden" <[hidden email]> wrote:
I'm baffled. Is this some sort of 'in' joke at ICFP?
Then remember the rest of the world can see this list.

> All yays from committee members please reply with yes to
this email :)

If this is to the committee, shouldn't it be on the
committee list?
(I mean ghc-steering-committee.)

Or is there some other committee? I thought the
Haskell-prime forum and process
 was dead/replaced by the github proposals process?

If there is a serious proposal, please explain what it is
and what is the motivation.
At risk of me sounding like a complete dork: I find it
rather useful
that I can compare numbers for equality and show them.
(That is, without having to write my own instances.)

AntC

_______________________________________________
Haskell-prime mailing list
[hidden email]
http://mail.haskell.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/haskell-prime


_______________________________________________
Haskell-prime mailing list
[hidden email]
http://mail.haskell.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/haskell-prime
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Remove eq and show from num class

Herbert Valerio Riedel-3
In reply to this post by AntC
On 2017-09-08 at 09:19:54 +0200, Anthony Clayden wrote:

[...]

> If this is to the committee, shouldn't it be on the committee list?
> (I mean ghc-steering-committee.)

> Or is there some other committee? I thought the Haskell-prime forum
> and process was dead/replaced by the github proposals process?

I can see how the proliferation of committees & github repos may
seem confusing to casual observers, so let me provide a quick overview
which hopefully doesn't worsen the confusion... :-)

## Haskell Core Library Committee

 - https://wiki.haskell.org/Core_Libraries_Committee

Basically, the core library committee oversees decisions of what happens
with core libraries such as `base` which includes the API defined by the
Haskell library report. However, the Eq/Show=>Num superclass removal proposal
(<https://mail.haskell.org/pipermail/libraries/2011-September/016712.html>),
however predates the core libraries committee's existence (the CLC was
originally formed sometime around 2013 to design and manage big changes
such as the implementation of the Functor/Applicative/Monad proposal --
for which there was big community support but lack of leadership was
preventing its implementation).

Moreover, the CLC together with the Hackage Trustees also maintains the
https://github.com/haskell/pvp specification which is integral to the
way Hackage and the Cabal solver interact.

## Haskell Language Committee (aka Haskell Prime Committee)

 - https://mail.haskell.org/pipermail/haskell-prime/2016-April/004050.html

So this committee's incarnation has just been formed last year; it's a
bit too early to declare it dead.

## GHC Steering Committee

 - https://ghc.haskell.org/trac/ghc/wiki/SteeringCommittee

This is mostly about user-facing changes to GHC and was created shortly
after the prime committee's formation was announced. It surely wasn't
intended to replace the prime committee, but was rather formed as a
reaction to complaints about GHC's governance, you can read up about its
intent at

 - https://ghc.haskell.org/trac/ghc/blog/rethinking-proposals

Not all changes are even relevant to the Haskell Report (like
e.g. warning flags); but Report-relevant changes may start their
life-cycle as GHC extensions to get some empirical field-testing, and if
desirable to later be promoted to Haskell Prime proposals subject to the
Prime process.

## Other Committees

For completeness, here's a few other Haskell-related committees and/or
working-group like processes OTTOMH:

### Haskell.org committee

 - https://wiki.haskell.org/Haskell.org_committee

### The Haskell.org Website Working Group (HWWG)

 - https://github.com/ndmitchell/hwwg

### Haskell Ecosystem Proposals

 - https://github.com/haskell/ecosystem-proposals

### Industrial Haskell Group

 - http://industry.haskell.org

### Commercial Haskell Group

 - https://github.com/commercialhaskell/commercialhaskell


HTH,
  HVR
_______________________________________________
Haskell-prime mailing list
[hidden email]
http://mail.haskell.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/haskell-prime
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

RE: Remove eq and show from num class

Haskell - Haskell-prime mailing list
Good summary Herbert.  It'd be great to have it as a page on haskell.org, rather than just in soon-lost email.

Simon

| -----Original Message-----
| From: Haskell-prime [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf
| Of Herbert Valerio Riedel
| Sent: 08 September 2017 09:43
| To: Anthony Clayden <[hidden email]>
| Cc: [hidden email]
| Subject: Re: Remove eq and show from num class
|
| On 2017-09-08 at 09:19:54 +0200, Anthony Clayden wrote:
|
| [...]
|
| > If this is to the committee, shouldn't it be on the committee list?
| > (I mean ghc-steering-committee.)
|
| > Or is there some other committee? I thought the Haskell-prime forum
| > and process was dead/replaced by the github proposals process?
|
| I can see how the proliferation of committees & github repos may seem
| confusing to casual observers, so let me provide a quick overview which
| hopefully doesn't worsen the confusion... :-)
|
| ## Haskell Core Library Committee
|
|  -
| https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwiki.has
| kell.org%2FCore_Libraries_Committee&data=02%7C01%7Csimonpj%40microsoft.co
| m%7Ca13a8633ae3c436a9deb08d4f695bee5%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7
| C1%7C0%7C636404570444220789&sdata=wQ%2B6bfpKtDPUmnxa54FWVDiq%2F3H7eVfnkGF
| kW4s82Ns%3D&reserved=0
|
| Basically, the core library committee oversees decisions of what happens
| with core libraries such as `base` which includes the API defined by the
| Haskell library report. However, the Eq/Show=>Num superclass removal
| proposal (<https://mail.haskell.org/pipermail/libraries/2011-
| September/016712.html>),
| however predates the core libraries committee's existence (the CLC was
| originally formed sometime around 2013 to design and manage big changes
| such as the implementation of the Functor/Applicative/Monad proposal --
| for which there was big community support but lack of leadership was
| preventing its implementation).
|
| Moreover, the CLC together with the Hackage Trustees also maintains the
| https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fgithub.c
| om%2Fhaskell%2Fpvp&data=02%7C01%7Csimonpj%40microsoft.com%7Ca13a8633ae3c4
| 36a9deb08d4f695bee5%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C63640457
| 0444220789&sdata=uI0uVdaGjBLmNrlUqdrPeO7g6%2B4isWj8w1Qi3CDHIIU%3D&reserve
| d=0 specification which is integral to the way Hackage and the Cabal
| solver interact.
|
| ## Haskell Language Committee (aka Haskell Prime Committee)
|
|  - https://mail.haskell.org/pipermail/haskell-prime/2016-
| April/004050.html
|
| So this committee's incarnation has just been formed last year; it's a
| bit too early to declare it dead.
|
| ## GHC Steering Committee
|
|  - https://ghc.haskell.org/trac/ghc/wiki/SteeringCommittee
|
| This is mostly about user-facing changes to GHC and was created shortly
| after the prime committee's formation was announced. It surely wasn't
| intended to replace the prime committee, but was rather formed as a
| reaction to complaints about GHC's governance, you can read up about its
| intent at
|
|  - https://ghc.haskell.org/trac/ghc/blog/rethinking-proposals
|
| Not all changes are even relevant to the Haskell Report (like e.g.
| warning flags); but Report-relevant changes may start their life-cycle as
| GHC extensions to get some empirical field-testing, and if desirable to
| later be promoted to Haskell Prime proposals subject to the Prime
| process.
|
| ## Other Committees
|
| For completeness, here's a few other Haskell-related committees and/or
| working-group like processes OTTOMH:
|
| ### Haskell.org committee
|
|  -
| https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwiki.has
| kell.org%2FHaskell.org_committee&data=02%7C01%7Csimonpj%40microsoft.com%7
| Ca13a8633ae3c436a9deb08d4f695bee5%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%
| 7C0%7C636404570444220789&sdata=7yZv2psUaTehR%2FsiCtNY0n1AXzrGcHXrUKoDxeeV
| HyY%3D&reserved=0
|
| ### The Haskell.org Website Working Group (HWWG)
|
|  -
| https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fgithub.c
| om%2Fndmitchell%2Fhwwg&data=02%7C01%7Csimonpj%40microsoft.com%7Ca13a8633a
| e3c436a9deb08d4f695bee5%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C6364
| 04570444220789&sdata=cKoBAcJdILupv2mlkwvHuSCx1lwdwIimCi3%2BTujuSHo%3D&res
| erved=0
|
| ### Haskell Ecosystem Proposals
|
|  -
| https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fgithub.c
| om%2Fhaskell%2Fecosystem-
| proposals&data=02%7C01%7Csimonpj%40microsoft.com%7Ca13a8633ae3c436a9deb08
| d4f695bee5%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C63640457044422078
| 9&sdata=XW3ojdp3kjN8wB%2FhOzeWSi6T2UKYaH2M9u8YaSWzeGQ%3D&reserved=0
|
| ### Industrial Haskell Group
|
|  -
| https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Findustry.
| haskell.org&data=02%7C01%7Csimonpj%40microsoft.com%7Ca13a8633ae3c436a9deb
| 08d4f695bee5%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C636404570444220
| 789&sdata=tmFLIQlxl%2Bs9HFSS2d6qLV3MKGjjToLDnskN99yGYKg%3D&reserved=0
|
| ### Commercial Haskell Group
|
|  -
| https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fgithub.c
| om%2Fcommercialhaskell%2Fcommercialhaskell&data=02%7C01%7Csimonpj%40micro
| soft.com%7Ca13a8633ae3c436a9deb08d4f695bee5%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd01
| 1db47%7C1%7C0%7C636404570444220789&sdata=%2F44igZz%2BRNReXD9vYllze0alzxI0
| r1BXOGkWvGZoxjM%3D&reserved=0
|
|
| HTH,
|   HVR
| _______________________________________________
| Haskell-prime mailing list
| [hidden email]
| https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fmail.hask
| ell.org%2Fcgi-bin%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fhaskell-
| prime&data=02%7C01%7Csimonpj%40microsoft.com%7Ca13a8633ae3c436a9deb08d4f6
| 95bee5%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C636404570444220789&sd
| ata=O629fxiUjQGNCt8l%2BhZ5YaaF7gYC09ilo4J1fEmi%2BKo%3D&reserved=0
_______________________________________________
Haskell-prime mailing list
[hidden email]
http://mail.haskell.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/haskell-prime
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Remove eq and show from num class

AntC
In reply to this post by Carter Schonwald
> On 2017-09-08 at 08:43 AM, Herbert RIedel wrote:

Thank you Herbert for the explanation.

>> On 2017-09-08 at 09:19:54 +0200, Anthony Clayden wrote:
>
> [...]
>
> I can see how the proliferation of committees & github
> repos may seem confusing to casual observers, ...

Not that so much. I saw:

A message from Carter about lunch queues.
A new topic from Carter with a 5-word Subject line,
 not saying it was a proposal;
 saying something about some committee approving something;
 with a smiley;
 several more messages with smileys (a couple from you).
 
That doesn't seem to follow the process
in the link you sent.

Nothing saying this is a proposal.
Nothing explaining or motivating.
Now you're referring me back to a 2011 version of some
proposal.
It's hardly providing context.
To repeat: think about all the Haskellers reading this list.

So for anybody not at ICFP (I'm not)
what's going on?
Are you just a bunch of clowns joking around?
It doesn't seem to be April 1st.

This from you is relevant:

> ## Haskell Core Library Committee
>
> ... (the CLC was originally formed sometime around 2013
> to design and manage big changes such as the
implementation of
> the Functor/Applicative/Monad proposal --
> for which there was big community support but lack of
leadership was
> preventing its implementation).

Whether or not everything under the FTP
were sensible changes (I think not),
the actual communication of what was to change was lousy,
and the consultation/decision process was rushed at the end.
There are still people grumbling about it.

You seem at risk of repeating that.


AntC
_______________________________________________
Haskell-prime mailing list
[hidden email]
http://mail.haskell.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/haskell-prime
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Remove eq and show from num class

AntC
In reply to this post by Carter Schonwald
> On 8 Sep 2017 at 07:54 Nathan van Doorm wrote:

Thank you Nathan and Mario for your explanations.

> The motivation is that there are many types with sensible
> definitions for addition and multiplication etc that can't
> be instances of Eq or Show, for example functions to
> numbers (allowing us to write "sin + cos" instead of "\x
> -> sin x + cos X") or arbitrary real numbers (where
> comparison isn't necessarily computable).

The Haskell 2010 report section 6.4 Numbers starts:

"Haskell provides several kinds of numbers; ...".
Then goes on to class `Num`.

Functions `sin`, `cos` are not numbers,
so it's not sensible to put them in `Num`.

By the same token, I wouldn't expect Haskell to figure out
tan == sin / cos
so it's not sensible to put those in `Eq`.

If you want to write higher-order algebraic expressions
with the Num operators, override the Prelude.

(Perhaps this is part of a wider issue
 to do with reorganising `Num` so it has nicer
 'mathematical' structure: additive, multiplicative, etc.
 That might also cover that `Eq` is dodgy
 for floating-point or `Rational`s representations.
 But that reorg has seemed prohibitively hard.)

>
> I'm not sure why this is being discussed on the mailing
> list rather than the Github proposals thing, ...

Quite. I've found the github proposals process for GHC
very valuable.

> but I do know that that has grown somewhat inactive

The Haskell-prime list has been fairly inactive too.
It was originally formed to identify stable features,
that were to go into a revised language standard
that was to be an evolution from H98.

"Haskell' will be a conservative refinement of Haskell 98."
it still says on the listinfo. (Note the future tense.)

That process ended with the H2010 report.
I must admit I thought (wrongly, it seems) that
Haskell-prime rather died after that.

Somebody could start by loading up
the outstanding proposals from the Haskell-prime list.
(Herbert says this one is from 2011.)
 
> and this is as good as anything for getting the
> Haskell' committee to make a final judgement.
>

Do we need any judgment at all?
The skies do not seem to be falling.

> This has been how it is in GHC for a long time now,
> so it really is a matter for the Haskell' committee
> rather than one of the GHC committees.

MPTCs, GADTs (for example) have been in GHC
far longer.

OK it's bit naughty GHC doesn't have a flag
for something that's not compliant to the report.
But that's a GHC issue, not a grounds for changing
the language spec.


AntC

>
>> On 8 Sep 2017 8:35 am, "Anthony Clayden" wrote:
>> ...
_______________________________________________
Haskell-prime mailing list
[hidden email]
http://mail.haskell.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/haskell-prime
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Remove eq and show from num class

John Wiegley-2
In reply to this post by AntC
>>>>> "AC" == Anthony Clayden <[hidden email]> writes:

AC> All yays from committee members please reply with yes to this email :)

Just to note: I don't recall their being an actual "vote" on this during our
informal meeting of just a few of the committee members here at ICFP, so I
took Carter's note to be a sign of enthusiasm, and not actual procedural
decision making.

--
John Wiegley                  GPG fingerprint = 4710 CF98 AF9B 327B B80F
http://newartisans.com                          60E1 46C4 BD1A 7AC1 4BA2
_______________________________________________
Haskell-prime mailing list
[hidden email]
http://mail.haskell.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/haskell-prime
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Remove eq and show from num class

Carter Schonwald
I mostly wanted to confirm that we in fact will actually say yes before doing the formal writtingup :) 

On Fri, Sep 8, 2017 at 2:06 PM, John Wiegley <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>>> "AC" == Anthony Clayden <[hidden email]> writes:

AC> All yays from committee members please reply with yes to this email :)

Just to note: I don't recall their being an actual "vote" on this during our
informal meeting of just a few of the committee members here at ICFP, so I
took Carter's note to be a sign of enthusiasm, and not actual procedural
decision making.

--
John Wiegley                  GPG fingerprint = 4710 CF98 AF9B 327B B80F
http://newartisans.com                          60E1 46C4 BD1A 7AC1 4BA2
_______________________________________________
Haskell-prime mailing list
[hidden email]
http://mail.haskell.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/haskell-prime


_______________________________________________
Haskell-prime mailing list
[hidden email]
http://mail.haskell.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/haskell-prime
12