Time for a new logo?

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Re: Time for a new logo?

Richard A. O'Keefe
On 18 Dec 2008, at 11:26 am, Andrew Coppin wrote:

>> (Also, "coroutines"? Seriously? That's hardly an obscure term in
>> programming circles.)
>>
>
> Well now, I'm curios. I've been writing computer programs since I  
> was 9 years old. I hold a diploma *and* an honours degree in  
> computer science. And I have never even *heard* of a coroutine. To  
> this day I still don't know what it means. I rather suspect I'm not  
> the only "programmer" on earth who finds themselves in this  
> position. ;-)

Shame on you for not reading Knuth's
"The Art of Computer Programming", Volume 1, "Fundamental Algorithms".
The then available three volumes of TAOCP
"were named among the best twelve physical-science monographs
  of the century by American Scientist" "at the end of 1999".
(Fasicles 0, 2, 3, and 4 of volume 4 are now available, and
parts of fasicle 1 are on-line.  Hooray hooray!)

Quoting the first two paragraphs of the Wikipedia entry:
"In computer science, coroutines are program components that  
generalize subroutines to allow multiple entry points for suspending  
and resuming of execution at certain locations. Coroutines are well-
suited for implementing more familiar program components such as  
cooperative tasks, iterators, infinite lists and pipes.
The term "coroutine" was originated by Melvin Conway in his seminal  
1963 paper.[1]"

So "coroutine" has been standard hacker-type programming terminology
since 1963.  I was able to use coroutines in Burroughs Extended Algol
(designed in the mid to late 60s), Simula 67, and Interlisp-D (80s).
Current languages supporting them include (thanks, Wikipedia) Lua,
Limbo, JavaScript, Python, and Ruby.  Since anything with continuations
can do coroutines, we add Scheme and SML/NJ.  Sather's iterators may be
a more familiar form of coroutine.  You will commonly find something
like a "yield e" statement that reports the value of e to the caller
without actually returning, and "resume c" that resumes a coroutine
to get the next value.


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Re: Re: Time for a new logo?

Ketil Malde-5
In reply to this post by George Pollard
George Pollard <[hidden email]> writes:

> Might be interesting to try angling the ends of the stems to look
> something more like the guillemot in [1]. I might try this in Gimp but
> I'm no designer :P

If you're on Linux or similar, I recommend Inkscape for this kind of
thing.

-k
--
If I haven't seen further, it is by standing in the footprints of giants
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Re: Re: Time for a new logo?

Neil Mitchell
Hi

>> Might be interesting to try angling the ends of the stems to look
>> something more like the guillemot in [1]. I might try this in Gimp but
>> I'm no designer :P
>
> If you're on Linux or similar, I recommend Inkscape for this kind of
> thing.

If you're on Windows, Inkscape also works well for most graphics tasks
(unless you bought a copy of Xara X, in which case use that unless you
want SVG output)

Thanks

Neil
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intimidating terminology (was: Re: Time for a new logo?)

wren ng thornton
In reply to this post by Andrew Coppin
quoth Andrew Coppin:

> quoth Tristan Seligmann:
> > quoth Andrew Coppin:
> > > Sure, there are many concepts in Haskell which just aren't found  
> > > anywhere else. But monads? Catamorphisms? Coroutines? Couldn't we
> > > think  up some less intimidating terminology?    
> >
> > The problem is that "less intimidating" terminology generally seems to
> > mean inaccurate or misleading terminology.
>
> I'm not sure I agree with that.
>
> Sure, simplifying things *can* make them less precise. But I don't
> believe it is always necessarily so. And I think we could try a little
> bit harder here. (Nothing too radical, just some small changes.)

Consider the humble catamorphism (and anamorphism). Can you think of any
simple, descriptive, non-ambiguous name for this pattern other than the
technical name? An oft used name is "fold" (and "unfold") which is
simple, possibly descriptive, but certainly ambiguous. For example: the
fold/unfold names are used as jargon for optimization ---in compilers
for logic languages and query planning for databases--- for inlining
functions and then 'outlining' parts after doing some reorganization.
There are other technical uses which are just as different.

The problem with simple terms for jargon is that they're all taken. When
we take everyday terms like "fold", "set", "list", "tree", "category",
"type", "kind", "sort", "variety", "domain", "group", et cetera and
reappropriate them for technical use there are two problems. The first
is that all of the simple everyday terms have already been appropriated
time and again, so using it will often be ambiguous. The second is that
the technical meaning often does not expressly match the daily meaning,
which in turn means that these terms will often be confusing or used
casually in a way that confuses the daily and technical meanings.

It's all well and good for terminology to be non-intimidating, but for
technical terminology I think there must be a high premium on
correctness as well. Reappropriating terms which have fallen into disuse
for their original meanings (e.g. monad) or which are taken or invented
from languages the audience is unlikely to be familiar with (e.g.
catamorphism) ensures that we don't have to worry about baggage
associated with those words. This is good because it means there won't
be conflicts of meaning, but it's bad because it means the audience
can't intuit an approximate meaning. Pedantic as I am wont to be, I
think the benefit outweighs the detriment, but YMMV.

--
Live well,
~wren
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Re: intimidating terminology (was: Re: Time for a new logo?)

Lennart Augustsson
When accurate names for Haskell concepts already exist we should use
them (as we have tried in the past).  There has been too much
invention of misleading terminology in computing already.  If some
people can't handle things having the right names, well, maybe they
should try another language.  (What would happen if we used the new
name principle, e.g., in cooking?  "Oh, cinnamon is a difficult name,
I'll call it tangy spice instead.")

  -- Lennart

On Fri, Dec 19, 2008 at 2:23 AM, wren ng thornton <[hidden email]> wrote:

> quoth Andrew Coppin:
>>
>> quoth Tristan Seligmann:
>> > quoth Andrew Coppin: > > Sure, there are many concepts in Haskell which
>> > just aren't found  > > anywhere else. But monads? Catamorphisms? Coroutines?
>> > Couldn't we > > think  up some less intimidating terminology?     >
>> > The problem is that "less intimidating" terminology generally seems to
>> > mean inaccurate or misleading terminology.
>>
>> I'm not sure I agree with that.
>>
>> Sure, simplifying things *can* make them less precise. But I don't believe
>> it is always necessarily so. And I think we could try a little bit harder
>> here. (Nothing too radical, just some small changes.)
>
> Consider the humble catamorphism (and anamorphism). Can you think of any
> simple, descriptive, non-ambiguous name for this pattern other than the
> technical name? An oft used name is "fold" (and "unfold") which is simple,
> possibly descriptive, but certainly ambiguous. For example: the fold/unfold
> names are used as jargon for optimization ---in compilers for logic
> languages and query planning for databases--- for inlining functions and
> then 'outlining' parts after doing some reorganization. There are other
> technical uses which are just as different.
>
> The problem with simple terms for jargon is that they're all taken. When we
> take everyday terms like "fold", "set", "list", "tree", "category", "type",
> "kind", "sort", "variety", "domain", "group", et cetera and reappropriate
> them for technical use there are two problems. The first is that all of the
> simple everyday terms have already been appropriated time and again, so
> using it will often be ambiguous. The second is that the technical meaning
> often does not expressly match the daily meaning, which in turn means that
> these terms will often be confusing or used casually in a way that confuses
> the daily and technical meanings.
>
> It's all well and good for terminology to be non-intimidating, but for
> technical terminology I think there must be a high premium on correctness as
> well. Reappropriating terms which have fallen into disuse for their original
> meanings (e.g. monad) or which are taken or invented from languages the
> audience is unlikely to be familiar with (e.g. catamorphism) ensures that we
> don't have to worry about baggage associated with those words. This is good
> because it means there won't be conflicts of meaning, but it's bad because
> it means the audience can't intuit an approximate meaning. Pedantic as I am
> wont to be, I think the benefit outweighs the detriment, but YMMV.
>
> --
> Live well,
> ~wren
> _______________________________________________
> Haskell-Cafe mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
>
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Re: intimidating terminology (was: Re: Time for a new logo?)

Bugzilla from jonathanccast@fastmail.fm
On Fri, 2008-12-19 at 09:13 +0000, Lennart Augustsson wrote:
> When accurate names for Haskell concepts already exist we should use
> them (as we have tried in the past).  There has been too much
> invention of misleading terminology in computing already.

There are two possible cases (this applies to any branch of mathematics,
or mathematical discipline):

a) Use existing words, and give them new meanings.  Then you're using a
word that already means something else.

Best example: series vs. sequence in calculus.

b) Invent a new word (probably based on Latin or Greek roots).  Then
you're using incomprehensible and frightening technical jargon.

Best example: catamorphism (apparently).

So you're damned if you do, damned if you don't.

My solution: stop caring what people think.

jcc


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Re: Re: Time for a new logo?

Brandon S Allbery KF8NH
In reply to this post by Darrin Thompson
On 2008 Dec 17, at 8:42, Darrin Thompson wrote:
> X monad could have a variant of this logo too. >X= (That's how I
> originally thought of it, just was too lazy to post it anywhere. Sorry
> about that.)


Or just a lambda with an extra contrasting stroke to make an X (λ'  
very roughly, if you have the right font).

--
brandon s. allbery [solaris,freebsd,perl,pugs,haskell] [hidden email]
system administrator [openafs,heimdal,too many hats] [hidden email]
electrical and computer engineering, carnegie mellon university    KF8NH


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Re: Re: Time for a new logo?

MigMit
BTW, in Russian the character "X" (pronounced a bit like English "H")  
is the first letter in "Haskell".

On 21 Dec 2008, at 21:48, Brandon S. Allbery KF8NH wrote:

> On 2008 Dec 17, at 8:42, Darrin Thompson wrote:
>> X monad could have a variant of this logo too. >X= (That's how I
>> originally thought of it, just was too lazy to post it anywhere.  
>> Sorry
>> about that.)
>
>
> Or just a lambda with an extra contrasting stroke to make an X (λ'  
> very roughly, if you have the right font).
>
> --
> brandon s. allbery [solaris,freebsd,perl,pugs,haskell] [hidden email]
> system administrator [openafs,heimdal,too many hats] [hidden email]
> electrical and computer engineering, carnegie mellon university    
> KF8NH
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Haskell-Cafe mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe

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Re: intimidating terminology (was: Re: Time for a new logo?)

Brandon S Allbery KF8NH
In reply to this post by Lennart Augustsson
On 2008 Dec 19, at 4:13, Lennart Augustsson wrote:
> When accurate names for Haskell concepts already exist we should use
> them (as we have tried in the past).  There has been too much
> invention of misleading terminology in computing already.  If some
> people can't handle things having the right names, well, maybe they
> should try another language.  (What would happen if we used the new
> name principle, e.g., in cooking?  "Oh, cinnamon is a difficult name,
> I'll call it tangy spice instead.")


Cinnamon's already got an accuracy problem anyway:  what most people  
in the US call cinnamon is actually cassia.

--
brandon s. allbery [solaris,freebsd,perl,pugs,haskell] [hidden email]
system administrator [openafs,heimdal,too many hats] [hidden email]
electrical and computer engineering, carnegie mellon university    KF8NH


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Re: Time for a new logo?

Benjamin L. Russell
In reply to this post by sam lee
On Sun, 14 Dec 2008 16:50:11 -0500, "sam lee" <[hidden email]>
wrote:

>http://i35.tinypic.com/mjon83.png
>used this: http://www.simwebsol.com/ImageTool/Default.aspx

This logo still has not been uploaded to the "Haskell logos/New logo
ideas" (http://haskell.org/haskellwiki/Haskell_logos/New_logo_ideas)
page.

Could you please upload it before it is forgotten?

-- Benjamin L. Russell
--
Benjamin L. Russell  /   DekuDekuplex at Yahoo dot com
http://dekudekuplex.wordpress.com/
Translator/Interpreter / Mobile:  +011 81 80-3603-6725
"Furuike ya, kawazu tobikomu mizu no oto."
-- Matsuo Basho^

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new "Haskell logos/Logo design tools - HaskellWiki" page [Was: Re: Time for a new logo?]

Benjamin L. Russell
In reply to this post by Don Stewart-2
In order to encourage participation in The Great 2009 Haskell Logo
Contest, I have created a new "Haskell logos/Logo design tools -
HaskellWiki" page (see
http://haskell.org/haskellwiki/Haskell_logos/Logo_design_tools).

This page is still a stub; if you have any further information on logo
design tools or logo design-related resource sites, including design
advice, please feel free to add to it.

The more participation, the better!

-- Benjamin L. Russell
--
Benjamin L. Russell  /   DekuDekuplex at Yahoo dot com
http://dekudekuplex.wordpress.com/
Translator/Interpreter / Mobile:  +011 81 80-3603-6725
"Furuike ya, kawazu tobikomu mizu no oto."
-- Matsuo Basho^

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Re: Time for a new logo?

ksvanhorn
In reply to this post by Don Stewart-2
Looking over the New_logo_ideas page, my vote is for the "snowflake" logo:

http://haskell.org/sitewiki/images/9/98/Haskell-Symstar.png

(I would simplify it, though, by removing the motto "pure - lazy - fun".)

I like this logo because it works well on two different levels.  For those in the know, the lambda and >>= symbols suggest monads and first-class functions, two important features of the language.  For those unfamiliar with Haskell or functional programming, the logo still looks pretty cool and manages to suggest mathematical beauty.
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Re: Time for a new logo?

Benjamin L. Russell
In reply to this post by Don Stewart-2
My design, entitled "Origami-lambda-supernova-warp," consists of an H
composed of two identical vertically tiled lambdas warping from a
supernova. It symbolizes the warp of the Haskell-lambda away from the
O of object-orientation (symbolized by the supernova).

Created in Inkscape, then adjusted in GIMP.  First attempt at graphic
design.

Already posted two days ago at
http://haskell.org/haskellwiki/Haskell_logos/New_logo_ideas.

-- Benjamin L. Russell
--
Benjamin L. Russell  /   DekuDekuplex at Yahoo dot com
http://dekudekuplex.wordpress.com/
Translator/Interpreter / Mobile:  +011 81 80-3603-6725
"Furuike ya, kawazu tobikomu mizu no oto."
-- Matsuo Basho^

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Re: Re: Time for a new logo?

Colin Paul Adams
There are a lot of nice designs on the new_logo_ideas page.

My favourite by far is Conal's.

One thing I noticed - everyone seems to include lower-case lambda in
the design, but no-one seems to have replaced the terminal double ell
in Haskell with a double lambda.
--
Colin Adams
Preston Lancashire
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Re: Re: Time for a new logo?

Thomas Davie

On 24 Dec 2008, at 08:13, Colin Paul Adams wrote:

> There are a lot of nice designs on the new_logo_ideas page.
>
> My favourite by far is Conal's.
>
> One thing I noticed - everyone seems to include lower-case lambda in
> the design, but no-one seems to have replaced the terminal double ell
> in Haskell with a double lambda.

I already did that one -- it's up there.





Bob
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Re: Re: Time for a new logo?

MigMit
In reply to this post by Colin Paul Adams
You have to be unnecessarily strict to read the whole word "Haskell"  
and not just first one or two letters.

On 24 Dec 2008, at 10:13, Colin Paul Adams wrote:

> There are a lot of nice designs on the new_logo_ideas page.
>
> My favourite by far is Conal's.
>
> One thing I noticed - everyone seems to include lower-case lambda in
> the design, but no-one seems to have replaced the terminal double ell
> in Haskell with a double lambda.
> --
> Colin Adams
> Preston Lancashire
> _______________________________________________
> Haskell-Cafe mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe

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Re: Re: Time for a new logo?

John Dorsey-2
Quoth Miguel Mitrofanov:
> You have to be unnecessarily strict to read the whole word "Haskell"  
> and not just first one or two letters.

Not true, if you're looking forward to what may follow "Haskell".

Cheers,
John

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