Time for a new logo?

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Re: Time for a new logo?

Malcolm Wallace
Andrew Coppin <[hidden email]> wrote:

> To him, apparently, the current logo says "Haskell is all
> about  arcane and obscure mathematical constructs. In fact, we think
> that  complicated mathematics is so good that we stuffed our logo full
> of it.  If you don't like hard math, don't even bother trying to learn
> this  language."

I think he got the right idea (kind of).  To him, mathematics is arcane,
but to Haskellers it is the fundamental basis of computation.  If
someone is not prepared to invest in learning the foundations of the
subject of Computer Science, then they have no business becoming a
programmer.  Would you want someone who disdains mathematics to be
responsible for designing the physical aerodynamics of aircraft?  Then
why would you permit them to program the control software that will fly
it?

We really must get away from the idea that programming is something any
old fool should be able to pick up.  Programming correct software is
hard, and it requires a mathematical mind.

Regards,
    Malcolm
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Re: Time for a new logo?

Ross Mellgren
It does require a mathematical mind, but does not require that you  
understand the mathematical language. If mathematics are the basis of  
computation, and programming is an implementation of computation, then  
in many ways programming languages are a (less powerful) equivalent  
language to the language of mathematics as applied to computation.

I've been professionally programming for many years, and did it as a  
hobby since I was very young. I'm not going to say that I'm some kind  
of super programmer or anything, but I have had a decent amount of  
programming experience in a variety of languages. That said, Haskell  
vexed and threw me off for a couple years before I finally sat down  
and tried to "pull aside" the curtain of mathematics terms that were  
(for me) obscuring how to use Haskell.

Once I sat down with a ton of examples and just plodded through a  
bunch of research papers (it seems like all the "fun" features in  
Haskell are only described in research papers ;-) ) I saw how what I  
knew from the other programming languages I knew was doable in Haskell  
and it increased my understanding, where I can now kind-of maybe  
understand what those papers are talking about by relating it to how  
the compiler will implement the code.

Of course, now that I get it, Haskell is my favorite compiled language  
hands-down. It was just a much longer steeper learning curve because I  
had to learn it and the terms used to describe it simultaneously  
rather than having a leg up on either from knowing other programming  
languages.

Now, don't get me wrong, I don't think that the goal with a language  
should necessarily be to attract as many people as possible, but don't  
you feel bad for those poor sots who don't understand how bad off the  
mainstream of Java, C++, etc is? ;-)

Just my 2 cents as a non-math-learned programmer.

-Ross

On Dec 16, 2008, at 7:12 AM, Malcolm Wallace wrote:

> Andrew Coppin <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> To him, apparently, the current logo says "Haskell is all
>> about  arcane and obscure mathematical constructs. In fact, we think
>> that  complicated mathematics is so good that we stuffed our logo  
>> full
>> of it.  If you don't like hard math, don't even bother trying to  
>> learn
>> this  language."
>
> I think he got the right idea (kind of).  To him, mathematics is  
> arcane,
> but to Haskellers it is the fundamental basis of computation.  If
> someone is not prepared to invest in learning the foundations of the
> subject of Computer Science, then they have no business becoming a
> programmer.  Would you want someone who disdains mathematics to be
> responsible for designing the physical aerodynamics of aircraft?  Then
> why would you permit them to program the control software that will  
> fly
> it?
>
> We really must get away from the idea that programming is something  
> any
> old fool should be able to pick up.  Programming correct software is
> hard, and it requires a mathematical mind.
>
> Regards,
>    Malcolm
> _______________________________________________
> Haskell-Cafe mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe

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Re: Time for a new logo?

John Van Enk
In reply to this post by Michael Giagnocavo
We could take the HL2 logo and replace the "2" with "6". I'm sure there's some trademark issue here, but i like the idea.

/jve


On Mon, Dec 15, 2008 at 5:52 PM, Michael Giagnocavo <[hidden email]> wrote:
Don Stewart wrote:
> I noticed a new haskell logo idea on a tshirt today,
>
>     http://image.spreadshirt.net/image-server/image/configuration/13215127/producttypecolor/2/type/png
>
> Simple, clean and *pure*.
>

While "lambda in a circle" is quite powerful, it's also quite similar to the logo for the rather popular game "Half-Life" (especially if orange is used). I'm not sure if this is relevant.
http://images.google.com/images?q=half+life+logo

-Michael
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Re: Time for a new logo?

Darrin Thompson
My $0.02 us:

Apologies for ascii art, and hopefully gmail doesn't munge this:

----    ----
\    \  \    \    ------------
 \    \  \    \  \            |
  \    \  \    \   -----------
   \    \  \    \
   /    /  /     \    --------
  /    /  /       \  \        |
 /    /  /   /\    \   -------
/    /  /   /  \    \
----    ----     ----

--
Darrin
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Re: Time for a new logo?

Justin Bogner
"Darrin Thompson" <[hidden email]> writes:

> ----    ----
> \    \  \    \    ------------
>  \    \  \    \  \            |
>   \    \  \    \   -----------
>    \    \  \    \
>    /    /  /     \    --------
>   /    /  /       \  \        |
>  /    /  /   /\    \   -------
> /    /  /   /  \    \
> ----    ----     ----

+1

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Re: Time for a new logo?

Andrew Coppin
In reply to this post by Malcolm Wallace
Malcolm Wallace wrote:

> Andrew Coppin <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>  
>> To him, apparently, the current logo says "Haskell is all
>> about  arcane and obscure mathematical constructs. In fact, we think
>> that  complicated mathematics is so good that we stuffed our logo full
>> of it.  If you don't like hard math, don't even bother trying to learn
>> this  language."
>>    
>
> I think he got the right idea (kind of).  To him, mathematics is arcane,
> but to Haskellers it is the fundamental basis of computation.  If
> someone is not prepared to invest in learning the foundations of the
> subject of Computer Science, then they have no business becoming a
> programmer.
>
> We really must get away from the idea that programming is something any
> old fool should be able to pick up.  Programming correct software is
> hard, and it requires a mathematical mind.
>  

I think the accusation is more that Haskell tries to be cryptic and
arcane *on purpose*, just to confuse people.

Sure, there are many concepts in Haskell which just aren't found
anywhere else. But monads? Catamorphisms? Coroutines? Couldn't we think
up some less intimidating terminology?

{-# LANGUAGE ExistentialQuantification #-}

Hmm, now if this was Perl or something, that would be
HiddenTypeVariables or something. Much less fearsom-sounding.

But then, I guess that's what you get for a lanuage designed by a
committee of university professors. ;-)

At any rate, if we're to have a logo, let's not have one which actively
*promotes* the notion that Haskell is complex and difficult and that
only theoretical physicists need apply...

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Re: Time for a new logo?

George Pollard
In reply to this post by Darrin Thompson
On Tue, 2008-12-16 at 12:40 -0500, Darrin Thompson wrote:

> My $0.02 us:
>
> Apologies for ascii art, and hopefully gmail doesn't munge this:
>
> ----    ----
> \    \  \    \    ------------
>  \    \  \    \  \            |
>   \    \  \    \   -----------
>    \    \  \    \
>    /    /  /     \    --------
>   /    /  /       \  \        |
>  /    /  /   /\    \   -------
> /    /  /   /  \    \
> ----    ----     ----
    ---   --------
   /  /  /  ____  \
  /  /  /  /    \  \
 /  /   ---     /  /
/  /           /  /
\  \           \  \
 \  \   ---     \  \
  \  \  \  \____/  /
   \  \  \        /
    ---   --------


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Re: Time for a new logo?

Bugzilla from jonathanccast@fastmail.fm
In reply to this post by Andrew Coppin
On Tue, 2008-12-16 at 20:23 +0000, Andrew Coppin wrote:

> Malcolm Wallace wrote:
> > Andrew Coppin <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> >  
> >> To him, apparently, the current logo says "Haskell is all
> >> about  arcane and obscure mathematical constructs. In fact, we think
> >> that  complicated mathematics is so good that we stuffed our logo full
> >> of it.  If you don't like hard math, don't even bother trying to learn
> >> this  language."
> >>    
> >
> > I think he got the right idea (kind of).  To him, mathematics is arcane,
> > but to Haskellers it is the fundamental basis of computation.  If
> > someone is not prepared to invest in learning the foundations of the
> > subject of Computer Science, then they have no business becoming a
> > programmer.
> >
> > We really must get away from the idea that programming is something any
> > old fool should be able to pick up.  Programming correct software is
> > hard, and it requires a mathematical mind.
> >  
>
> I think the accusation is more that Haskell tries to be cryptic and
> arcane *on purpose*, just to confuse people.
>
> Sure, there are many concepts in Haskell which just aren't found
> anywhere else. But monads? Catamorphisms? Coroutines? Couldn't we think
> up some less intimidating terminology?

If we thought up that terminology, that would be a legitimate complaint.

But we didn't; we're just trying to honor our fore-bearers by using
their terminology and crediting them when we use their ideas.

> {-# LANGUAGE ExistentialQuantification #-}
>
> Hmm, now if this was Perl or something, that would be
> HiddenTypeVariables or something. Much less fearsom-sounding.

No, it's cute.  Repulsively so.

> But then, I guess that's what you get for a lanuage designed by a
> committee of university professors. ;-)
>
> At any rate, if we're to have a logo, let's not have one which actively
> *promotes* the notion that Haskell is complex and difficult and that
> only theoretical physicists need apply...

I'd like to hold out, again, for the idea that we get a higher-quality
community by promoting that notion.

jcc


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Re: Time for a new logo?

Richard A. O'Keefe
In reply to this post by Eelco Lempsink-4

On 15 Dec 2008, at 2:57 pm, Eelco Lempsink wrote:
> <haskell-logo.png>
>
>
> By the way, the font used (Kautiva) is not free.

That's fine, I wouldn't take it as a gift.  It looks horrible.

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Re: Time for a new logo?

Nathan Bloomfield
In reply to this post by Darrin Thompson
On Tue, Dec 16, 2008 at 11:40 AM, Darrin Thompson <[hidden email]> wrote:
My $0.02 us:

Apologies for ascii art, and hopefully gmail doesn't munge this:

----    ----
\    \  \    \    ------------
 \    \  \    \  \            |
 \    \  \    \   -----------
  \    \  \    \
  /    /  /     \    --------
 /    /  /       \  \        |
 /    /  /   /\    \   -------
/    /  /   /  \    \
----    ----     ----

--
Darrin

I really like this idea. It incorporates two important ideas and is simple enough to look good at different sizes; plus, it doesn't look like the Half-life logo. My biggest concern is that to someone not already familiar with Haskell syntax, it might be confusing. (That may or may not be an actual problem.)

Nathan Bloomfield


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Re: Time for a new logo?

Richard A. O'Keefe
In reply to this post by Álvaro Vilanova Vidal

On 16 Dec 2008, at 1:24 am, Álvaro Vilanova Vidal wrote:

> One more concept.
> <haskell_infinitylambda_logo.svg>

> <haskell_infinitylambda.svg><haskell_infinitylambda.png>

The hybrid lambda/infinity sign looks more like a bra advertisement
and the lettering is unpleasant.  For one thing, the language is
called "Haskell", so a logo should not call it "haskell".  (The
language cares very much about case, after all.)

Admittedly lambda signifies functions to us, but there are
probably more people who know what A -> B means than who
know what lambda means.  Arguably

        Haskell
        → → → →

conveys something of the language (we do write
f :: a -> b -> c -> d -> e  for a multiparameter function)
and also suggests something dynamic and forward-looking.
Indeed, the multiple arrows even suggest concurrency,
which is true.

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Re: Time for a new logo? -> Haskell logo as a stamp!

Henning Thielemann
In reply to this post by Henning Thielemann

On Mon, 15 Dec 2008, Henning Thielemann wrote:

> On Mon, 15 Dec 2008, Don Stewart wrote:
>
>> And anyone who does a version, place put it on the wiki.
>> It'll be lost if you only post to the list.
>>
>> I propose we gather submissions and vote on the best for a new logo in
>> 2009.
>
> Whatever logo someone prefers: I have written a program using HPDF which
> creates stamps for the German post (see http://www.internetmarke.de/) with
> custom images:
>  http://code.haskell.org/~thielema/internetmarke/

Try it out now:
   http://hackage.haskell.org/cgi-bin/hackage-scripts/package/internetmarke
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Re: Time for a new logo?

Jeff Wheeler-2
In reply to this post by John Van Enk
On Dec 16, 2008, at 17:40:27 GMT, Darrin Thompson  wrote:
My $0.02 us:

Apologies for ascii art, and hopefully gmail doesn't munge this:
I love this ASCII-art version. I tried to make a vector version of it in Photoshop, and I came up with this [1].

Any critiques/suggestions? I'm thinking about a second version that more obviously defines the second '>' with color from the bottom-right part of the lambda.

Jeff Wheeler


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Re: Time for a new logo?

Jeff Wheeler-2
In reply to this post by Darrin Thompson
Darrin Thompson <darrinth <at> gmail.com> writes:

> My $0.02 us:
>
> Apologies for ascii art, and hopefully gmail doesn't munge this:

I love this ASCII-art version. I tried to make a vector version of it in
Photoshop, and I came up with this [1]
and [2].

Any critiques/suggestions? I'm thinking about a second version that more
obviously defines the second '>' with color from the bottom-right part of the
lambda.

Jeff Wheeler

[1]: http://media.nokrev.com/junk/haskell-logos/logo1.png
[2]: http://media.nokrev.com/junk/haskell-logos/logo2.png

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Re: Re: Time for a new logo?

George Pollard
On Wed, 2008-12-17 at 02:47 +0000, Jeff Wheeler wrote:

> Darrin Thompson <darrinth <at> gmail.com> writes:
>
> > My $0.02 us:
> >
> > Apologies for ascii art, and hopefully gmail doesn't munge this:
>
> I love this ASCII-art version. I tried to make a vector version of it in
> Photoshop, and I came up with this [1]
> and [2].
>
> Any critiques/suggestions? I'm thinking about a second version that more
> obviously defines the second '>' with color from the bottom-right part of the
> lambda.
>
> Jeff Wheeler
>
> [1]: http://media.nokrev.com/junk/haskell-logos/logo1.png
> [2]: http://media.nokrev.com/junk/haskell-logos/logo2.png
I like the first version better. :) I'd suggest making the lambda/arrow
a bit straighter and beefing up the size of the equals in relation to
the rest of the symbol :)

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Re: Re: Time for a new logo?

Jeff Wheeler-2
In reply to this post by Jeff Wheeler-2

On Dec 16, 2008, at 10:08 PM, Ryan Grant wrote:

> nice.
> the first is better.
> in the second, i don't even see the lambda.

Thanks the feedback. I just uploaded a new version [1] that is icon-
sized, although the font used is Helvetica Neue, which is non-free. I  
have no free fonts on my Mac, unfortunately, so it'll stay for the  
moment.

Jeff Wheeler

[1] http://media.nokrev.com/junk/haskell-logos/logo4.png
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Re: Time for a new logo?

Aaron Tomb-3
In reply to this post by Don Stewart-2

On Dec 15, 2008, at 9:03 AM, Don Stewart wrote:

> And anyone who does a version, place put it on the wiki.
> It'll be lost if you only post to the list.
>
> I propose we gather submissions and vote on the best for a new logo in
> 2009.

I'm a big fan of those posted by FalconNL. I showed the whole page to  
a professional graphic designer and brand strategist, and she thought  
that the ">> Haskell" ones were the best of the complete designs, by  
far, from a design standpoint. I'm not sure which of the three I like  
best, though.

She also really liked the recent symbol inspired by Darrin Thompson's  
ASCII art. Some variant of FalconNL's original designs with that  
symbol in place of the ">>" might look nice. The symbol could also be  
used on its own, which is a plus.

Finally, she much preferred Officina Sans over Fonce Sans. It's sad  
that there are so few good free fonts to choose from, but I'd say it's  
better to go for the one that looks good. It can be embedded into a  
vector graphic.

Aaron

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Re: Time for a new logo?

Justin Bogner
In reply to this post by George Pollard
George Pollard <[hidden email]> writes:

> On Wed, 2008-12-17 at 02:47 +0000, Jeff Wheeler wrote:
>> I love this ASCII-art version. I tried to make a vector version of it in
>> Photoshop, and I came up with this [1]
>> and [2].
>>
>> Any critiques/suggestions? I'm thinking about a second version that more
>> obviously defines the second '>' with color from the bottom-right part of the
>> lambda.
>>
>> Jeff Wheeler
>>
>> [1]: http://media.nokrev.com/junk/haskell-logos/logo1.png
>> [2]: http://media.nokrev.com/junk/haskell-logos/logo2.png
>
> I like the first version better. :) I'd suggest making the lambda/arrow
> a bit straighter and beefing up the size of the equals in relation to
> the rest of the symbol :)

I also like the first better. If the equals was ever so slightly wider,
it would be absolutely perfect.

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Re: Time for a new logo?

Thomas Davie
In reply to this post by Darrin Thompson

On 16 Dec 2008, at 18:40, Darrin Thompson wrote:

> ----    ----
> \    \  \    \    ------------
> \    \  \    \  \            |
>  \    \  \    \   -----------
>   \    \  \    \
>   /    /  /     \    --------
>  /    /  /       \  \        |
> /    /  /   /\    \   -------
> /    /  /   /  \    \
> ----    ----     ----

Oh please no, please don't let the logo be something that says  
"Haskell, it's all about monads".

Bob
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Re: Time for a new logo?

Neal Alexander-2
In reply to this post by Justin Bogner
[hidden email] wrote:

> George Pollard <[hidden email]> writes:
>> On Wed, 2008-12-17 at 02:47 +0000, Jeff Wheeler wrote:
>>> I love this ASCII-art version. I tried to make a vector version of it in
>>> Photoshop, and I came up with this [1]
>>> and [2].
>>>
>>> Any critiques/suggestions? I'm thinking about a second version that more
>>> obviously defines the second '>' with color from the bottom-right part of the
>>> lambda.
>>>
>>> Jeff Wheeler
>>>
>>> [1]: http://media.nokrev.com/junk/haskell-logos/logo1.png
>>> [2]: http://media.nokrev.com/junk/haskell-logos/logo2.png
>> I like the first version better. :) I'd suggest making the lambda/arrow
>> a bit straighter and beefing up the size of the equals in relation to
>> the rest of the symbol :)
>
> I also like the first better. If the equals was ever so slightly wider,
> it would be absolutely perfect.

The first is real nice.

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123456