Time for a new logo?

Previous Topic Next Topic
 
classic Classic list List threaded Threaded
117 messages Options
123456
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Re: Time for a new logo?

Vo Minh Thu
2008/12/17 Neal Alexander <[hidden email]>:

> [hidden email] wrote:
>>
>> George Pollard <[hidden email]> writes:
>>>
>>> On Wed, 2008-12-17 at 02:47 +0000, Jeff Wheeler wrote:
>>>>
>>>> I love this ASCII-art version. I tried to make a vector version of it in
>>>> Photoshop, and I came up with this [1] and [2].
>>>>
>>>> Any critiques/suggestions? I'm thinking about a second version that more
>>>> obviously defines the second '>' with color from the bottom-right part of
>>>> the lambda.
>>>>
>>>> Jeff Wheeler
>>>>
>>>> [1]: http://media.nokrev.com/junk/haskell-logos/logo1.png
>>>> [2]: http://media.nokrev.com/junk/haskell-logos/logo2.png
>>>
>>> I like the first version better. :) I'd suggest making the lambda/arrow
>>> a bit straighter and beefing up the size of the equals in relation to
>>> the rest of the symbol :)
>>
>> I also like the first better. If the equals was ever so slightly wider,
>> it would be absolutely perfect.
>
> The first is real nice.

It has a military feeling I don't like...

Cheers,
Thu
_______________________________________________
Haskell-Cafe mailing list
[hidden email]
http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Time for a new logo?

Luke Palmer-2
In reply to this post by Thomas Davie
On Wed, Dec 17, 2008 at 1:10 AM, Thomas Davie <[hidden email]> wrote:

On 16 Dec 2008, at 18:40, Darrin Thompson wrote:

----    ----
\    \  \    \    ------------
\    \  \    \  \            |
 \    \  \    \   -----------
 \    \  \    \
 /    /  /     \    --------
 /    /  /       \  \        |
/    /  /   /\    \   -------
/    /  /   /  \    \
----    ----     ----

Oh please no, please don't let the logo be something that says "Haskell, it's all about monads".

But it's a very pretty logo.  And the idea of "computation abstractions", Applicatives and Monads in particular, are a pretty big part of Haskell as a language and as a culture.   Haskell, it's not exactly not about monads.

IOW:  About(Haskell, Monads)

Luke
 

_______________________________________________
Haskell-Cafe mailing list
[hidden email]
http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Time for a new logo?

Thomas Davie

On 17 Dec 2008, at 09:26, Luke Palmer wrote:

On Wed, Dec 17, 2008 at 1:10 AM, Thomas Davie <[hidden email]> wrote:

On 16 Dec 2008, at 18:40, Darrin Thompson wrote:

----    ----
\    \  \    \    ------------
\    \  \    \  \            |
 \    \  \    \   -----------
 \    \  \    \
 /    /  /     \    --------
 /    /  /       \  \        |
/    /  /   /\    \   -------
/    /  /   /  \    \
----    ----     ----

Oh please no, please don't let the logo be something that says "Haskell, it's all about monads".

But it's a very pretty logo.  And the idea of "computation abstractions", Applicatives and Monads in particular, are a pretty big part of Haskell as a language and as a culture.   Haskell, it's not exactly not about monads.

No, I agree, but there's already a large body of literature that implies that Haskell is pretty much only about monads, and I'd hate to see the logo go the same way.  Though I do take your point about abstractions being a major part of the language.

Bob

_______________________________________________
Haskell-Cafe mailing list
[hidden email]
http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Re: Time for a new logo?

George Pollard
In reply to this post by Vo Minh Thu
> It has a military feeling I don't like...

Might look cuddlier with slightly rounded edges. That's what all the
cool kids[1] are doing anyway ;)

[1]: http://www.python.org/

_______________________________________________
Haskell-Cafe mailing list
[hidden email]
http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe

signature.asc (204 bytes) Download Attachment
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Time for a new logo?

Gianfranco Alongi
In reply to this post by Thomas Davie
I agree on what some people say; I see no point in trying to advertise
"elitism".
Let's avoid the same mistake as the linux community made; soon we'll
have an internal flame war about which monad is the best (linux
distribution flame-wars analog), arguing who's the most 31337 haxxor
and so on.

In my opinion, true elegance comes from being really good at something
without pushing it in the face of others. Let the log say "haskell -
it's elegant" without trying to be posh.

/Gf

2008/12/17 Thomas Davie <[hidden email]>:

>
> On 17 Dec 2008, at 09:26, Luke Palmer wrote:
>
> On Wed, Dec 17, 2008 at 1:10 AM, Thomas Davie <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> On 16 Dec 2008, at 18:40, Darrin Thompson wrote:
>>
>>> ----    ----
>>> \    \  \    \    ------------
>>> \    \  \    \  \            |
>>>  \    \  \    \   -----------
>>>  \    \  \    \
>>>  /    /  /     \    --------
>>>  /    /  /       \  \        |
>>> /    /  /   /\    \   -------
>>> /    /  /   /  \    \
>>> ----    ----     ----
>>
>> Oh please no, please don't let the logo be something that says "Haskell,
>> it's all about monads".
>
> But it's a very pretty logo.  And the idea of "computation abstractions",
> Applicatives and Monads in particular, are a pretty big part of Haskell as a
> language and as a culture.   Haskell, it's not exactly not about monads.
>
> No, I agree, but there's already a large body of literature that implies
> that Haskell is pretty much only about monads, and I'd hate to see the logo
> go the same way.  Though I do take your point about abstractions being a
> major part of the language.
> Bob
> _______________________________________________
> Haskell-Cafe mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
>
>



--
Patience is the last resort for those unable to take action
_______________________________________________
Haskell-Cafe mailing list
[hidden email]
http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Time for a new logo?

Regis Saint-Paul
In reply to this post by Neal Alexander-2

> >>>
> >>> Any critiques/suggestions? I'm thinking about a second version that
> more
> >>> obviously defines the second '>' with color from the bottom-right part
> of the
> >>> lambda.
> >>>
> >>> Jeff Wheeler
> >>>
> >>> [1]: http://media.nokrev.com/junk/haskell-logos/logo1.png
> >>> [2]: http://media.nokrev.com/junk/haskell-logos/logo2.png
> >> I like the first version better. :) I'd suggest making the lambda/arrow
> >> a bit straighter and beefing up the size of the equals in relation to
> >> the rest of the symbol :)
> >
> > I also like the first better. If the equals was ever so slightly wider,
> > it would be absolutely perfect.
>
> The first is real nice.
>

The [1] is really nice and I would love to see other variations with the
wider equal and a bit more rounded edges as was proposed by others. Also the
long bar of the lambda may be slightly rounded (as an integral sign), maybe
just at the bottom part to avoid disturbing the >>. That would make the logo
less military too.

As an answer to the critics that referring to the monad would be elitist, I
think this it is a non-issue since someone unfamiliar with Haskell would
judge the logo purely on its graphical appeal.

For me, the criteria of a good logo are:
* Simplicity
* Graphically pleasant
* Do not degrade too much if printed in black and white vs. color or when
resized to icon size. The fact it can be rendered in ascii-art is even
better.

The relation to the topic is quiet optional (hence all the
"cute-animal-based" logo). It is however welcomed when it doesn't hurt the
design (as in [1]). By comparison, the current logo performs very badly on
all these criteria.

Cheers,
-Regis Saint-Paul




_______________________________________________
Haskell-Cafe mailing list
[hidden email]
http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Time for a new logo?

Ketil Malde-5
In reply to this post by Gianfranco Alongi
"Gianfranco Alongi" <[hidden email]> writes:

> I agree on what some people say; I see no point in trying to advertise
> "elitism".

For this reason, my favorite subtitle is "pure . lazy . fun".  Nice
and friendly, with some doulbe meanings for the cognoscenti. (I'm
sorry, but I can't bring myself to add "simple" in there with a
straight face.)

Is it an option to add a \tau to the \lambda?  Especially if we go for
the lambda in a circle theme - to differentiate from Half-life,
Scheme, and other kids' stuff :-)

-k
--
If I haven't seen further, it is by standing in the footprints of giants
_______________________________________________
Haskell-Cafe mailing list
[hidden email]
http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Time for a new logo?

Gianfranco Alongi
I must agree, the proposal " pure . lazy . fun" is quite funny and
informative at the same time.
It will hopefully also supply people with something to laugh about
when they have learned enough. :)

While being true, it's also subtle.

/Gf

On Wed, Dec 17, 2008 at 11:48 AM, Ketil Malde <[hidden email]> wrote:

> "Gianfranco Alongi" <[hidden email]> writes:
>
>> I agree on what some people say; I see no point in trying to advertise
>> "elitism".
>
> For this reason, my favorite subtitle is "pure . lazy . fun".  Nice
> and friendly, with some doulbe meanings for the cognoscenti. (I'm
> sorry, but I can't bring myself to add "simple" in there with a
> straight face.)
>
> Is it an option to add a \tau to the \lambda?  Especially if we go for
> the lambda in a circle theme - to differentiate from Half-life,
> Scheme, and other kids' stuff :-)
>
> -k
> --
> If I haven't seen further, it is by standing in the footprints of giants
>



--
Patience is the last resort for those unable to take action
_______________________________________________
Haskell-Cafe mailing list
[hidden email]
http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Re: Time for a new logo?

Darrin Thompson
In reply to this post by Jeff Wheeler-2
On Tue, Dec 16, 2008 at 9:47 PM, Jeff Wheeler <[hidden email]> wrote:
> [1]: http://media.nokrev.com/junk/haskell-logos/logo1.png
> [2]: http://media.nokrev.com/junk/haskell-logos/logo2.png
>
>

Oops, I meant to post on list.

If you play with the angles and vary the stroke thicknesses you'll
probably get a friendlier look, vs. the military/airline look these
have now. The first '>' doesn't have to be the same thickness as the
lambda.

Just another $0.02 us. Thanks for running with it. Those look like I imagined.

What I like about the design is anybody can draw it in 5 strokes and
it's unmistakably what it is. Sharpie, pencil, even spray paint all
work. You could make your own hat or t-shirt and wear it to an
important event, or a wedding. You could tag a rival cube farm wall to
declare some kind of office war.

X monad could have a variant of this logo too. >X= (That's how I
originally thought of it, just was too lazy to post it anywhere. Sorry
about that.)

--
Darrin
_______________________________________________
Haskell-Cafe mailing list
[hidden email]
http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Time for a new logo?

Tristan Seligmann-3
In reply to this post by Thomas Davie
* Thomas Davie <[hidden email]> [2008-12-17 09:10:55 +0100]:

> Oh please no, please don't let the logo be something that says "Haskell,
> it's all about monads".

I don't see anyone complaining about the python logo being something
that says "Python, it's all about snakes" (Python is named after Monty
Python). I really don't think that including a visual pun on the (>>=)
operator translates to "Haskell, it's all about monads"; you're only
likely to recognise the pun after you already know about monads anyway.
--
mithrandi, i Ainil en-Balandor, a faer Ambar

_______________________________________________
Haskell-Cafe mailing list
[hidden email]
http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe

signature.asc (204 bytes) Download Attachment
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Time for a new logo?

Tristan Seligmann-3
In reply to this post by Andrew Coppin
* Andrew Coppin <[hidden email]> [2008-12-16 20:23:50 +0000]:

> I think the accusation is more that Haskell tries to be cryptic and  
> arcane *on purpose*, just to confuse people.
>
> Sure, there are many concepts in Haskell which just aren't found  
> anywhere else. But monads? Catamorphisms? Coroutines? Couldn't we think  
> up some less intimidating terminology?

The problem is that "less intimidating" terminology generally seems to
mean inaccurate or misleading terminology. They aren't concepts that
aren't found anywhere else, they're concepts that *are* found elsewhere
(category theory, among other places), that's why they have those names.

(Also, "coroutines"? Seriously? That's hardly an obscure term in
programming circles.)

> {-# LANGUAGE ExistentialQuantification #-}
>
> Hmm, now if this was Perl or something, that would be  
> HiddenTypeVariables or something. Much less fearsom-sounding.

Also much less informative, and less accurate. The fact that Haskell
embraces its mathematical basis instead of trying to completely
obfuscate it away is not a bad thing, in my opinion.

> But then, I guess that's what you get for a lanuage designed by a  
> committee of university professors. ;-)
>
> At any rate, if we're to have a logo, let's not have one which actively  
> *promotes* the notion that Haskell is complex and difficult and that  
> only theoretical physicists need apply...

I think you're reading way too much into a logo.
--
mithrandi, i Ainil en-Balandor, a faer Ambar

_______________________________________________
Haskell-Cafe mailing list
[hidden email]
http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe

signature.asc (204 bytes) Download Attachment
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Time for a new logo?

wman
In reply to this post by Tristan Seligmann-3
2008/12/17 Tristan Seligmann <[hidden email]>
 I really don't think that including a visual pun on the (>>=)
operator translates to "Haskell, it's all about monads"; you're only
likely to recognise the pun after you already know about monads anyway.

True, true, and who cares about folks afraid of unknown operators which might do wonderfull stuff ;-)))

_______________________________________________
Haskell-Cafe mailing list
[hidden email]
http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Time for a new logo?

Gianfranco Alongi
2008/12/17 wman <[hidden email]>:
> 2008/12/17 Tristan Seligmann <[hidden email]>
>>
>>  I really don't think that including a visual pun on the (>>=)
>> operator translates to "Haskell, it's all about monads"; you're only
>> likely to recognise the pun after you already know about monads anyway.
>


> True, true, and who cares about folks afraid of unknown operators which
> might do wonderfull stuff ;-)))
>

That's the kind of mentality I am talking about. The "we are better
than you" mentality, should stay with the Java and .NET people. If you
have this urge of feeling superior and believe haskell-hacking is some
kind of achievement..... .

Haskell is a tool like any other, it's the ideas you manifest by it
that are important. And of course the way you do it. The logo should
be attractive; fire sparks of curiosity, represent what haskell is,
capture the essence of haskell.

Ps: This is no flame, I am making a point. If you feel this is a
flame; then I must apologize for the harsh tone.

> _______________________________________________
> Haskell-Cafe mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
>
>



--
Patience is the last resort for those unable to take action
_______________________________________________
Haskell-Cafe mailing list
[hidden email]
http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Time for a new logo?

wman
That's the kind of mentality I am talking about. The "we are better
than you" mentality, should stay with the Java and .NET people. If you
have this urge of feeling superior and believe haskell-hacking is some
kind of achievement..... .
 
Well, you are what many call "person who just can't take a joke". I'ts no about being better, it's abot that without curiosity and determination there is no space for embetterment.

And would you object to it even if I rephrased it slightly (so even those used to seeing superiority all around them would feel comfortable) :

Who cares about people who are afraid of discovering new stuff, who when they don't understand something rather than delving into it with pleasure just cover their eyes and start shouting "I don't wanna know, I don't wanna know" (or even better: "I already know _EVERYTHING_ i will ever need", or the most favorite one "Don't tell me how it works, just tell me what i should do").

> Haskell is a tool like any other, it's the ideas you manifest by it
> that are important. And of course the way you do it. The logo should
> be attractive; fire sparks of curiosity, represent what haskell is,
> capture the essence of haskell.

To me, new, unknown things are attractive (not that they might not turn disgusting ;-) ...
And how do you capture the essence of math ? How do you, through a logo, tell someone that most of it's elegance comes from the fact that it's derived straight from the laws/rules that governs everything else ?
Lambda _and_ a gray-bearded old fart sitting on a cloudlet, with a keyboard plugged into one of the earths poles ???

> Ps: This is no flame, I am making a point. If you feel this is a
> flame; then I must apologize for the harsh tone.

Oh, I've read that after finishing the reply. Ok, substract some irony from mine ;-)

_______________________________________________
Haskell-Cafe mailing list
[hidden email]
http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Re: Time for a new logo?

Jeff Wheeler-2
In reply to this post by Darrin Thompson
On Wed, 2008-12-17 at 08:42 -0500, Darrin Thompson wrote:

> If you play with the angles and vary the stroke thicknesses you'll
> probably get a friendlier look, vs. the military/airline look these
> have now. The first '>' doesn't have to be the same thickness as the
> lambda.
>
> Just another $0.02 us. Thanks for running with it. Those look like I imagined.

Thanks for the feedback. I've made two versions[1][2] with subtle
rounded edges, although now it becomes evident that I have no design
skills. :)

I tried giving them varying thicknesses, but I couldn't get anything to
look quite right. Everybody is welcome to hack it; I've uploaded a PSD
[3] (Photoshop src file); unfortunately, I don't have Illustrator and
Inkscape is failing to compile. It might be easier for people to hack if
somebody could convert this to an Inkscape file. :-/

> X monad could have a variant of this logo too. >X= (That's how I
> originally thought of it, just was too lazy to post it anywhere. Sorry
> about that.)

I like that too; not sure what to do for Yi, though.

Anybody mind if I add these to the wiki, too? I feel like I'm taking up
tons of space, there.

Jeff Wheeler

[1] http://media.nokrev.com/junk/haskell-logos/logo8.png
[2] http://media.nokrev.com/junk/haskell-logos/logo9.png
[3] http://media.nokrev.com/junk/haskell-logos/logo-rounded.psd

_______________________________________________
Haskell-Cafe mailing list
[hidden email]
http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe

signature.asc (202 bytes) Download Attachment
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Re: Time for a new logo?

Martijn van Steenbergen-2
In reply to this post by Darrin Thompson
Darrin Thompson wrote:

> On Tue, Dec 16, 2008 at 9:47 PM, Jeff Wheeler <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> [1]: http://media.nokrev.com/junk/haskell-logos/logo1.png
>> [2]: http://media.nokrev.com/junk/haskell-logos/logo2.png
>>
>>
>
> Oops, I meant to post on list.
>
> If you play with the angles and vary the stroke thicknesses you'll
> probably get a friendlier look, vs. the military/airline look these
> have now. The first '>' doesn't have to be the same thickness as the
> lambda.

If you look at fonts: characters in a font aren't all straight either;
they bend a bit (so that is more than just round corners) and this makes
them a lot more interesting. Various levels of bendiness yield various
levels of "playfulness". While I already like this logo a lot, I think
it could be improved a lot more by making it more "fonty". Note that I'm
not saying it should be a very playful logo, just a more fonty one... yeah.

Martijn.

_______________________________________________
Haskell-Cafe mailing list
[hidden email]
http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Re: Time for a new logo?

George Pollard
On Wed, 2008-12-17 at 21:46 +0100, Martijn van Steenbergen wrote:

> > If you play with the angles and vary the stroke thicknesses you'll
> > probably get a friendlier look, vs. the military/airline look these
> > have now. The first '>' doesn't have to be the same thickness as the
> > lambda.
>
> If you look at fonts: characters in a font aren't all straight either;
> they bend a bit (so that is more than just round corners) and this makes
> them a lot more interesting. Various levels of bendiness yield various
> levels of "playfulness". While I already like this logo a lot, I think
> it could be improved a lot more by making it more "fonty". Note that I'm
> not saying it should be a very playful logo, just a more fonty one... yeah.
Might be interesting to try angling the ends of the stems to look
something more like the guillemot in [1]. I might try this in Gimp but
I'm no designer :P


[1]
http://haskell.org/sitewiki/images/6/62/Haskell_logo_ideas_falconnl.png

_______________________________________________
Haskell-Cafe mailing list
[hidden email]
http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe

signature.asc (204 bytes) Download Attachment
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Time for a new logo?

Andrew Coppin
In reply to this post by Bugzilla from jonathanccast@fastmail.fm
Jonathan Cast wrote:
>> {-# LANGUAGE ExistentialQuantification #-}
>>
>> Hmm, now if this was Perl or something, that would be
>> HiddenTypeVariables or something. Much less fearsom-sounding.
>>    
>
> No, it's cute.  Repulsively so.
>  

Right. So giving things meaningful names is "repulsive"? No wonder
Haskell has a reputation for being incomprehensible...

>> At any rate, if we're to have a logo, let's not have one which actively
>> *promotes* the notion that Haskell is complex and difficult and that
>> only theoretical physicists need apply...
>>    
>
> I'd like to hold out, again, for the idea that we get a higher-quality
> community by promoting that notion.
>  

In other words, you want to keep Haskell elitist. Well, if that's what
the community in general wants, then fine. Personally, I strongly
disagree with this snobbish point of view. But I am only one voice...

_______________________________________________
Haskell-Cafe mailing list
[hidden email]
http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Re: Time for a new logo?

Andrew Coppin
In reply to this post by Jeff Wheeler-2
Jeff Wheeler wrote:
> [1]: http://media.nokrev.com/junk/haskell-logos/logo1.png
> [2]: http://media.nokrev.com/junk/haskell-logos/logo2.png
>  

As others have said:

- I very much like the concept of this. It's clean, simple, elegant.
Like Haskell!
- Yeah, it does look a tad harsh. Maybe curvy edges?

_______________________________________________
Haskell-Cafe mailing list
[hidden email]
http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Time for a new logo?

Don Stewart-2
In reply to this post by Andrew Coppin
andrewcoppin:

> Jonathan Cast wrote:
> >>{-# LANGUAGE ExistentialQuantification #-}
> >>
> >>Hmm, now if this was Perl or something, that would be
> >>HiddenTypeVariables or something. Much less fearsom-sounding.
> >>    
> >
> >No, it's cute.  Repulsively so.
> >  
>
> Right. So giving things meaningful names is "repulsive"? No wonder
> Haskell has a reputation for being incomprehensible...
>
> >>At any rate, if we're to have a logo, let's not have one which actively
> >>*promotes* the notion that Haskell is complex and difficult and that
> >>only theoretical physicists need apply...
> >>    
> >
> >I'd like to hold out, again, for the idea that we get a higher-quality
> >community by promoting that notion.
> >  
>
> In other words, you want to keep Haskell elitist. Well, if that's what
> the community in general wants, then fine. Personally, I strongly
> disagree with this snobbish point of view. But I am only one voice...


Chillax peoples. We'll all be able to vote on logos cute or otherwise in
January.

Until Dec 31, continue uploading useful suggestions and variants to the
submissions page

    http://haskell.org/haskellwiki/Haskell_logos/New_logo_ideas
_______________________________________________
Haskell-Cafe mailing list
[hidden email]
http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
123456