Work on Video Games in Haskell

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Work on Video Games in Haskell

Ryan Trinkle-2
iPwn Studios is seeking Haskell developers for its debut title, BloodKnight.

* No prior game development experience is required, but you must be very comfortable working in Haskell.
* Compensation is negotiable; profit-sharing may be available in some cases.
* To apply, or for more information, contact me at [hidden email].

BloodKnight is an action-roleplaying game inspired by games like Diablo and Fallout.  It is currently in the final stages of development, and will be released later this year on a variety of smartphone platforms, including iPhone and Android.

iPwn Studios is a start-up company located in Boston, MA.  We believe in giving back to the Haskell community, so we've open-sourced our ghc-iphone project, which allows GHC to produce binaries for the iPhone.  Check it out at http://projects.haskell.org/ghc-iphone/.


Ryan Trinkle
iPwn Studios


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Re: Work on Video Games in Haskell

Lyndon Maydwell
This sounds fantastic. Now I wish I had started learning haskell a few
years earlier.

As a side note, how is this project getting around the language
restrictions apple put in the developer license agreement?

--- [http://daringfireball.net/2010/04/iphone_agreement_bans_flash_compiler]
In the new version of the iPhone Developer Program License Agreement
released by Apple today (and which developers must agree to before
downloading the 4.0 SDK beta), section 3.3.1 now reads:

3.3.1 — Applications may only use Documented APIs in the manner
prescribed by Apple and must not use or call any private APIs.
Applications must be originally written in Objective-C, C, C++, or
JavaScript as executed by the iPhone OS WebKit engine, and only code
written in C, C++, and Objective-C may compile and directly link
against the Documented APIs (e.g., Applications that link to
Documented APIs through an intermediary translation or compatibility
layer or tool are prohibited).
---

On Wed, May 26, 2010 at 2:52 PM, Ryan Trinkle
<[hidden email]> wrote:

> iPwn Studios is seeking Haskell developers for its debut title, BloodKnight.
> * No prior game development experience is required, but you must be very
> comfortable working in Haskell.
> * Compensation is negotiable; profit-sharing may be available in some cases.
> * To apply, or for more information, contact me at [hidden email].
> BloodKnight is an action-roleplaying game inspired by games like Diablo and
> Fallout.  It is currently in the final stages of development, and will be
> released later this year on a variety of smartphone platforms, including
> iPhone and Android.
> iPwn Studios is a start-up company located in Boston, MA.  We believe in
> giving back to the Haskell community, so we've open-sourced our ghc-iphone
> project, which allows GHC to produce binaries for the iPhone.  Check it out
> at http://projects.haskell.org/ghc-iphone/.
>
> Ryan Trinkle
> iPwn Studios
>
> _______________________________________________
> Haskell-Cafe mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
>
>
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Re: Work on Video Games in Haskell

David Virebayre
On Wed, May 26, 2010 at 9:23 AM, Lyndon Maydwell <[hidden email]> wrote:

> As a side note, how is this project getting around the language
> restrictions apple put in the developer license agreement?

>From the project page :

This version uses Apple's official iPhone SDK as its back end compiler.

David.
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Re: [Haskell] Re: Work on Video Games in Haskell

Brandon S Allbery KF8NH
On May 26, 2010, at 03:50 , David Virebayre wrote:
> On Wed, May 26, 2010 at 9:23 AM, Lyndon Maydwell  
> <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> As a side note, how is this project getting around the language
>> restrictions apple put in the developer license agreement?
>
>> From the project page :
>
> This version uses Apple's official iPhone SDK as its back end  
> compiler.

You might want to reread that license agreement.  Specifically:

"Applications must be originally written in Objective-C, C, C++, or
JavaScript as executed by the iPhone OS WebKit engine, and only code
written in C, C++, and Objective-C may compile and directly link
against the Documented APIs (e.g., Applications that link to
Documented APIs through an intermediary translation or compatibility
layer or tool are prohibited)"

--
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system administrator [openafs,heimdal,too many hats] [hidden email]
electrical and computer engineering, carnegie mellon university    KF8NH



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Re: [Haskell] Re: Work on Video Games in Haskell

David Virebayre
On Wed, May 26, 2010 at 9:58 AM, Brandon S. Allbery KF8NH
<[hidden email]> wrote:

> You might want to reread that license agreement.  Specifically:
>
> "Applications must be originally written in Objective-C, C, C++, or
> JavaScript as executed by the iPhone OS WebKit engine, and only code
> written in C, C++, and Objective-C may compile and directly link
> against the Documented APIs (e.g., Applications that link to
> Documented APIs through an intermediary translation or compatibility
> layer or tool are prohibited)"

Ah, yes. Ouch, that's abusive.
Can they tell the difference though ?

David.
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Re: [Haskell] Re: Work on Video Games in Haskell

Daniel Peebles
In reply to this post by Brandon S Allbery KF8NH
Of course, given that they have no way of determining that short of asking for the source code (and hiring another thousand reviewers to read it) or applying static analysis tools with heuristics to the programs. I really doubt they do the latter, and the former is unrealistic.

Most people seem to think the clause is there mostly to discourage large companies like Adobe from making generic tools to translate to the iPhone/iPad. It would be a lot of effort for Apple to actually enforce it strictly.

On Wed, May 26, 2010 at 3:58 AM, Brandon S. Allbery KF8NH <[hidden email]> wrote:
On May 26, 2010, at 03:50 , David Virebayre wrote:
On Wed, May 26, 2010 at 9:23 AM, Lyndon Maydwell <[hidden email]> wrote:
As a side note, how is this project getting around the language
restrictions apple put in the developer license agreement?

>From the project page :

This version uses Apple's official iPhone SDK as its back end compiler.

You might want to reread that license agreement.  Specifically:


"Applications must be originally written in Objective-C, C, C++, or
JavaScript as executed by the iPhone OS WebKit engine, and only code
written in C, C++, and Objective-C may compile and directly link
against the Documented APIs (e.g., Applications that link to
Documented APIs through an intermediary translation or compatibility
layer or tool are prohibited)"

--
brandon s. allbery [solaris,freebsd,perl,pugs,haskell] [hidden email]
system administrator [openafs,heimdal,too many hats] [hidden email]
electrical and computer engineering, carnegie mellon university    KF8NH



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Re: [Haskell] Re: Work on Video Games in Haskell

Brandon S Allbery KF8NH
In reply to this post by David Virebayre
On May 26, 2010, at 04:14 , David Virebayre wrote:
> On Wed, May 26, 2010 at 9:58 AM, Brandon S. Allbery KF8NH
> <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> You might want to reread that license agreement.  Specifically:
>
> Ah, yes. Ouch, that's abusive.
> Can they tell the difference though ?


I suspect GHC-generated code is fairly distinctive even as machine  
code.  But they don't have to go to that extent; all they have to do  
is use Google to find this thread.  :(

--
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system administrator [openafs,heimdal,too many hats] [hidden email]
electrical and computer engineering, carnegie mellon university    KF8NH



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Re: [Haskell] Re: Work on Video Games in Haskell

Ryan Trinkle-2
Hi guys,

I don't think this licensing issue will be a problem for us.  It's not clear to me that our game violates this new term, and we certainly don't violate any of the principles Steve Jobs used to justify it.  If Apple wants to reject our app, they already have a variety of excuses at their disposal, as they've demonstrated on many occasions.  Frankly, it'd be their loss; Android is now the fastest-growing smartphone market, and we'll be more than happy to focus on it (and other friendlier markets) if Apple's not interested in having our product on their platform.


Ryan Trinkle
iPwn Studios

On Wed, May 26, 2010 at 4:18 AM, Brandon S. Allbery KF8NH <[hidden email]> wrote:
On May 26, 2010, at 04:14 , David Virebayre wrote:
On Wed, May 26, 2010 at 9:58 AM, Brandon S. Allbery KF8NH
<[hidden email]> wrote:
You might want to reread that license agreement.  Specifically:

Ah, yes. Ouch, that's abusive.
Can they tell the difference though ?


I suspect GHC-generated code is fairly distinctive even as machine code.  But they don't have to go to that extent; all they have to do is use Google to find this thread.  :(


--
brandon s. allbery [solaris,freebsd,perl,pugs,haskell] [hidden email]
system administrator [openafs,heimdal,too many hats] [hidden email]
electrical and computer engineering, carnegie mellon university    KF8NH



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Re: [Haskell] Re: Work on Video Games in Haskell

Pierre-Etienne Meunier-3
Anyway, does the license imply that one can't compile GHC's core language and RTS into objective-c, then compile it with their "so great" software ?



El 26/05/2010, a las 05:51, Ryan Trinkle escribió:

Hi guys,

I don't think this licensing issue will be a problem for us.  It's not clear to me that our game violates this new term, and we certainly don't violate any of the principles Steve Jobs used to justify it.  If Apple wants to reject our app, they already have a variety of excuses at their disposal, as they've demonstrated on many occasions.  Frankly, it'd be their loss; Android is now the fastest-growing smartphone market, and we'll be more than happy to focus on it (and other friendlier markets) if Apple's not interested in having our product on their platform.


Ryan Trinkle
iPwn Studios

On Wed, May 26, 2010 at 4:18 AM, Brandon S. Allbery KF8NH <[hidden email]> wrote:
On May 26, 2010, at 04:14 , David Virebayre wrote:
On Wed, May 26, 2010 at 9:58 AM, Brandon S. Allbery KF8NH
<[hidden email]> wrote:
You might want to reread that license agreement.  Specifically:

Ah, yes. Ouch, that's abusive.
Can they tell the difference though ?


I suspect GHC-generated code is fairly distinctive even as machine code.  But they don't have to go to that extent; all they have to do is use Google to find this thread.  :(


--
brandon s. allbery [solaris,freebsd,perl,pugs,haskell] [hidden email]
system administrator [openafs,heimdal,too many hats] [hidden email]
electrical and computer engineering, carnegie mellon university    KF8NH



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Re: [Haskell] Re: Work on Video Games in Haskell

Liam O'Connor
In reply to this post by Ryan Trinkle-2
If you guys get a nice library layer going between the Java APIs and
Android NDK Haskell, I would very much like it if you could post it up
somewhere. I think the entire community could benefit.

Cheers.
~Liam



On 26 May 2010 19:51, Ryan Trinkle <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hi guys,
> I don't think this licensing issue will be a problem for us.  It's not clear
> to me that our game violates this new term, and we certainly don't violate
> any of the principles Steve Jobs used to justify it.  If Apple wants to
> reject our app, they already have a variety of excuses at their disposal, as
> they've demonstrated on many occasions.  Frankly, it'd be their loss;
> Android is now the fastest-growing smartphone market, and we'll be more than
> happy to focus on it (and other friendlier markets) if Apple's not
> interested in having our product on their platform.
>
> Ryan Trinkle
> iPwn Studios
> On Wed, May 26, 2010 at 4:18 AM, Brandon S. Allbery KF8NH
> <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> On May 26, 2010, at 04:14 , David Virebayre wrote:
>>>
>>> On Wed, May 26, 2010 at 9:58 AM, Brandon S. Allbery KF8NH
>>> <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> You might want to reread that license agreement.  Specifically:
>>>
>>> Ah, yes. Ouch, that's abusive.
>>> Can they tell the difference though ?
>>
>>
>> I suspect GHC-generated code is fairly distinctive even as machine code.
>>  But they don't have to go to that extent; all they have to do is use Google
>> to find this thread.  :(
>>
>> --
>> brandon s. allbery [solaris,freebsd,perl,pugs,haskell] [hidden email]
>> system administrator [openafs,heimdal,too many hats] [hidden email]
>> electrical and computer engineering, carnegie mellon university    KF8NH
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Haskell-Cafe mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
>>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Haskell-Cafe mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
>
>
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Re: [Haskell] Re: Work on Video Games in Haskell

Edward Kmett-2
In reply to this post by Ryan Trinkle-2
On Wed, May 26, 2010 at 5:51 AM, Ryan Trinkle <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hi guys,

I don't think this licensing issue will be a problem for us.  It's not clear to me that our game violates this new term, and we certainly don't violate any of the principles Steve Jobs used to justify it.  If Apple wants to reject our app, they already have a variety of excuses at their disposal, as they've demonstrated on many occasions.  Frankly, it'd be their loss; Android is now the fastest-growing smartphone market, and we'll be more than happy to focus on it (and other friendlier markets) if Apple's not interested in having our product on their platform.

Steve Jobs has been quite clear that apps written in other languages, even ones that are interpreted in, compiles down to or otherwise generate objective c source code, don't comply with the changes in section 3.3.1 of their license, so I'm not sure that you have much of a case.

“We’ve been there before, and intermediate layers between the platform and the developer ultimately produces sub-standard apps and hinders the progress of the platform.”


Haskell definitely qualifies as an 'intermediate layer', just like MonoTouch, and just like the Flash-to-Objective-C compiler that provoked the original response from Apple.

http://www.taoeffect.com/blog/2010/04/steve-jobs-response-a-brief-followup/

Heck, even libraries that may contain scripting and modeling utilities like Unity3d are in jeopardy, due to this cockamamie restriction, which threatens to send the art of level design and game programming for the iphone technologically clear back into the early 90s, though at least there they appear to be treading lightly, since Unity has been useful in providing the iphone with a lot of high end content.

http://answers.unity3d.com/questions/7408/is-unity3d-banned-by-new-apple-sdk-licence

But, there are other numerous discussions floating around in the blogosphere involving previously approved applications written in scheme (even compiled via objective c), c#, or other middleware languages having their applications removed from the app store.

So, sadly, I think your chances of shipping your a title written in Haskell on the iPhone are shot to hell.

-Edward Kmett


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Re: [Haskell] Re: Work on Video Games in Haskell

Brandon S Allbery KF8NH
In reply to this post by Pierre-Etienne Meunier-3
On May 26, 2010, at 10:17 , Pierre-Etienne Meunier wrote:
Anyway, does the license imply that one can't compile GHC's core language and RTS into objective-c, then compile it with their "so great" software ?

As I read it, yes; it says that the calls to their APIs must *originate* from permitted languages, and specifically prohibits using those languages via translation layers.

-- 
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Re: [Haskell] Re: Work on Video Games in Haskell

Evan Laforge
In reply to this post by Edward Kmett-2
> So, sadly, I think your chances of shipping your a title written in Haskell
> on the iPhone are shot to hell.

+1 for the android version.

Disclaimer: biased google employee

:P

Unfortunately then you get another cockamamie restriction in the whole
JVM vs. tail calls thing...  but if you can get around that then lots
of people will like you a lot.
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Re: [Haskell] Re: Work on Video Games in Haskell

Pierre-Etienne Meunier-3
In reply to this post by Brandon S Allbery KF8NH
Well in this case I'd be really interested in seeing how the can tell the difference, be it only from a simple complexity theoretic point of view ! I understand they may look for common patterns in their compiler code to tell the difference between GHC's generated code and theirs, but pretending they can do it in this case only shows that Apple lawyers never communicate with the engineers.



El 26/05/2010, a las 15:32, Brandon S. Allbery KF8NH escribió:

On May 26, 2010, at 10:17 , Pierre-Etienne Meunier wrote:
Anyway, does the license imply that one can't compile GHC's core language and RTS into objective-c, then compile it with their "so great" software ?

As I read it, yes; it says that the calls to their APIs must *originate* from permitted languages, and specifically prohibits using those languages via translation layers.

-- 
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system administrator [openafs,heimdal,too many hats] [hidden email]
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Re: [Haskell] Re: Work on Video Games in Haskell

Dan Mead
In reply to this post by Evan Laforge
wouldn't they just want to have TCO happen during the compilation into
java? why would you want to output java that has recursion?

-Dan

On Wed, May 26, 2010 at 4:17 PM, Evan Laforge <[hidden email]> wrote:

>> So, sadly, I think your chances of shipping your a title written in Haskell
>> on the iPhone are shot to hell.
>
> +1 for the android version.
>
> Disclaimer: biased google employee
>
> :P
>
> Unfortunately then you get another cockamamie restriction in the whole
> JVM vs. tail calls thing...  but if you can get around that then lots
> of people will like you a lot.
> _______________________________________________
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Re: [Haskell] Re: Work on Video Games in Haskell

Brandon S Allbery KF8NH
In reply to this post by Pierre-Etienne Meunier-3
On May 26, 2010, at 17:22 , Pierre-Etienne Meunier wrote:
Well in this case I'd be really interested in seeing how the can tell the difference, be it only from a simple complexity theoretic point of view ! I understand they may look for common patterns in their compiler code to tell the difference between GHC's generated code and theirs, but pretending they can do it in this case only shows that Apple lawyers never communicate with the engineers.

No clue how they might be planning to enforce it, but it's not like the lawyers care; it's up to Apple to decide if they want to pursue any individual possible case of infringement, and Jobs to figure out what kind of hole he's dug himself into.  :)

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Re: [Haskell] Re: Work on Video Games in Haskell

John Meacham
In reply to this post by Evan Laforge
On Wed, May 26, 2010 at 01:17:00PM -0700, Evan Laforge wrote:
> Unfortunately then you get another cockamamie restriction in the whole
> JVM vs. tail calls thing...  but if you can get around that then lots
> of people will like you a lot.

Working on it... :)

        John

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Re: [Haskell] Re: Work on Video Games in Haskell

Edward Kmett-2
In reply to this post by Pierre-Etienne Meunier-3

On Wed, May 26, 2010 at 5:22 PM, Pierre-Etienne Meunier <[hidden email]> wrote:
Well in this case I'd be really interested in seeing how the can tell the difference, be it only from a simple complexity theoretic point of view ! I understand they may look for common patterns in their compiler code to tell the difference between GHC's generated code and theirs, but pretending they can do it in this case only shows that Apple lawyers never communicate with the engineers.

I think it is more a matter of Jobs trying to find any way he could to quickly block Adobe's attempted end-run around his blockade against Flash apps.

While we can all acknowledge the technical impossibility of identifying the original source language of a piece of code, all they need is to raise the spectre of doubt, and they have practically gutted all concern of a cross platform development environment emerging, because no sound business plan can be built on "I hope my major and only possible distributor doesn't figure out what I'm doing!"

-Edward Kmett

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Re: [Haskell] Re: Work on Video Games in Haskell

Ben Lippmeier-2

On 27/05/2010, at 9:01 AM, Edward Kmett wrote:
> While we can all acknowledge the technical impossibility of identifying the original source language of a piece of code...


Uh,

desire:tmp benl$ cat Hello.hs
main = putStr "Hello"

desire:tmp benl$ ghc --make Hello.hs

desire:tmp benl$ strings Hello | head
Hello
base:GHC.Arr.STArray
base:GHC.Arr.STArray
base:GHC.Classes.D:Eq
base:GHC.Classes.D:Eq
failed to read siginfo_t
 failed:
Warning:
select
buildFdSets: file descriptor out of range

...




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Re: [Haskell] Re: Work on Video Games in Haskell

Daniel Peebles
Next up, binary obfuscation! Apple already uses these extensively in their Fairplay code. Surely it isn't against the rules (yet?) to apply them to your program before submitting it to the store? :P

On Wed, May 26, 2010 at 11:01 PM, Ben Lippmeier <[hidden email]> wrote:

On 27/05/2010, at 9:01 AM, Edward Kmett wrote:
> While we can all acknowledge the technical impossibility of identifying the original source language of a piece of code...


Uh,

desire:tmp benl$ cat Hello.hs
main = putStr "Hello"

desire:tmp benl$ ghc --make Hello.hs

desire:tmp benl$ strings Hello | head
Hello
base:GHC.Arr.STArray
base:GHC.Arr.STArray
base:GHC.Classes.D:Eq
base:GHC.Classes.D:Eq
failed to read siginfo_t
 failed:
Warning:
select
buildFdSets: file descriptor out of range

...




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