haskell.org libraries and tools page needs some fixing

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haskell.org libraries and tools page needs some fixing

Bjorn Bringert-2
Hi all,

I recently wanted to add some libraries to
http://www.haskell.org/haskellwiki/Libraries_and_tools and noticed a
number of problems.

Problems:

- The page is very large.

- Many sections are large.

- Many of the libraries linked to are obsolete.

- Many of the links are dead [1].

- Many of the libraries have been moved into the standard libraries.

- Some libraries are listed in multiple sections (at least some
   CGI libraries, there might be more).

- Small and large, new and old libraries are mixed, and it's
   difficult for the reader to asses which things are relevant.

- The page is not valid XHTML, the W3C Validator finds 433 errors [2].

   * The pages uses <dt> tags everywhere, even though there is Wiki
     markup for definition lists. This seems to be causing most of
     the problems.


Some possible remedies:

- Replace dead links with Internet Archive links

- Create an "obsolete" subsection of each section, and move old
   stuff there. Of course it can be difficult to figure out which things
   are obsolete, but I guess a first approximation would be everything
   for which the link is dead.

- For libraries which are part of the standard libraries, provide links
to the haddock page for the relevant module.

- Replace HTML tags with Wiki markup.


I'm willing to start working on this, but I want to check with you guys
first. Any comments, ideas, or flames?

I guess that if I start doing major stuff like chaning the mark-up, I'll
put a note at the top asking people to hold off editing for a short while.

/Björn


[1]
http://www.cs.chalmers.se/~bringert/misc/hslibs-checklink/checklink.html

[2]
http://validator.w3.org/check?uri=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.haskell.org%2Fhaskellwiki%2FLibraries_and_tools
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Re: haskell.org libraries and tools page needs some fixing

Malcolm Wallace
Björn Bringert <[hidden email]> wrote:

> http://www.haskell.org/haskellwiki/Libraries_and_tools
> Problems:
>
> - The page is very large.
> - Many sections are large.

How about separating each category/section into a new page, all linked
from a single category index at the current location?

> - Many of the libraries have been moved into the standard libraries.

It is very useful for people looking for a particular piece of
functionality to know that there is a "standard" library for it.  It
might be good to put references to *more* of the standard libraries.

> - Some libraries are listed in multiple sections (at least some
>    CGI libraries, there might be more).

Some libraries do span more than one category?

> - Small and large, new and old libraries are mixed, and it's
>    difficult for the reader to asses which things are relevant.

An indication of size and healthiness would be very useful.

> - Replace dead links with Internet Archive links

Good, but only if coupled with the "obsolete" marking below.

> - Create an "obsolete" subsection of each section, and move old
>    stuff there. Of course it can be difficult to figure out which
>    things are obsolete, but I guess a first approximation would be
>    everything for which the link is dead.

Yes.  The general healthiness of a library is an important feature to
notate.

Regards,
    Malcolm
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Re: haskell.org libraries and tools page needs some fixing

Bulat Ziganshin-2
In reply to this post by Bjorn Bringert-2
Hello Björn,

Wednesday, March 22, 2006, 1:35:42 PM, you wrote:

BB> I recently wanted to add some libraries to
BB> http://www.haskell.org/haskellwiki/Libraries_and_tools and noticed a
BB> number of problems.

there is also HCAR report. my thoughts is what we should create some
central repository including libs/apps/papers/communities and so on
and replace both this page and HCAR with it. then anyone should
include himself here and edit the info as progress does. i also
created Library/Streams as possible part of this future enciclopedy,
having in mind that Library page will list all libs documented on
haskellwiki. another interesting place which should list libs is
hackage repository

i think that we should discuss this question and develop a common
place where everyone will list his libs/apps/... and document it as
much as he wants

--
Best regards,
 Bulat                            mailto:[hidden email]

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Re: haskell.org libraries and tools page needs some fixing

Bjorn Bringert-2
In reply to this post by Malcolm Wallace
Malcolm Wallace wrote:

> Björn Bringert <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>
>>http://www.haskell.org/haskellwiki/Libraries_and_tools
>>Problems:
>>
>>- The page is very large.
>>- Many sections are large.
>
>
> How about separating each category/section into a new page, all linked
> from a single category index at the current location?

In order to get manageable page sizes to work with, I have started to
implement Malcolm's suggestion to create separate pages for each
category. In some case I have made one page per sub-category. I hope
noone has any objections to this.

> ...

/Björn

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Re: haskell.org libraries and tools page needs some fixing

Bjorn Bringert-2
In reply to this post by Bjorn Bringert-2
Björn Bringert wrote:

> Hi all,
>
> I recently wanted to add some libraries to
> http://www.haskell.org/haskellwiki/Libraries_and_tools and noticed a
> number of problems.
>
> Problems:
>
> - The page is very large.
>
> - Many sections are large.
>
> - Many of the libraries linked to are obsolete.
>
> - Many of the links are dead [1].
>
> - Many of the libraries have been moved into the standard libraries.
>
> - Some libraries are listed in multiple sections (at least some
>   CGI libraries, there might be more).
>
> - Small and large, new and old libraries are mixed, and it's
>   difficult for the reader to asses which things are relevant.
>
> - The page is not valid XHTML, the W3C Validator finds 433 errors [2].
>
>   * The pages uses <dt> tags everywhere, even though there is Wiki
>     markup for definition lists. This seems to be causing most of
>     the problems.
>
>
> Some possible remedies:
>
> - Replace dead links with Internet Archive links
>
> - Create an "obsolete" subsection of each section, and move old
>   stuff there. Of course it can be difficult to figure out which things
>   are obsolete, but I guess a first approximation would be everything
>   for which the link is dead.
>
> - For libraries which are part of the standard libraries, provide links
> to the haddock page for the relevant module.
>
> - Replace HTML tags with Wiki markup.
>
>
> I'm willing to start working on this, but I want to check with you guys
> first. Any comments, ideas, or flames?
>
> I guess that if I start doing major stuff like chaning the mark-up, I'll
> put a note at the top asking people to hold off editing for a short while.

I have now split the huge Libraries and Tools page into about 20 smaller
pages, all linked to from the main page, cleaned up all the mark-up, and
marked any dead links for which there weren't obvious replacements with
a new template: {{dead link}}. I have tried to move some entries around
to get the "standard" ones near the top and dead ones at the bottom. I
haved added links to a few modules in the standard libraries where I
found it appropriate.

It would be great if you all could have a look at the libraries pages
for the categories in which you are interested and make sure that:

* all the libraries that you maintain or use are listed, and that
   the entries are reasonable accurate.
* any entries which are obsolete are removed.
* there are entries for relevant modules in the standard libraries.
* the entries are in some kind of order of importance.
* the pages link to any of the other library pages that might be
   relevant for that category.

There is still a "Various" section on the main page, with things that I
couldn't figure out where to put. You are very welcome to figure out
good places too move these to, adding pages as necessary. Remember to
link to any new pages from the main page.

/Björn
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Re: haskell.org libraries and tools page needs some fixing

Andres Loeh-2
In reply to this post by Bulat Ziganshin-2
> BB> I recently wanted to add some libraries to
> BB> http://www.haskell.org/haskellwiki/Libraries_and_tools and noticed a
> BB> number of problems.
>
> there is also HCAR report. my thoughts is what we should create some
> central repository including libs/apps/papers/communities and so on
> and replace both this page and HCAR with it. then anyone should
> include himself here and edit the info as progress does.

Such a proposal comes up every once in a while, and it certainly
sounds like a good idea. But I don't think it will work. From my
experience, getting a HCAR done is not only a lot of fun, but also
quite a bit of work. I think that it is a good thing to have a fixed
point in time when people involved in the Haskell community are
actively approached and asked and pushed to write up what they have
done. In the HCAR, you can see for every single entry if it has been
updated or not (and stuff that is outdated is removed). The result is
archived as a stable point of reference.  With a central repository,
chances are good that no one really feels responsible, and it will be
difficult to reach the same level of breadth and quality. You
certainly can get rid of these advantages by assigning an editor and
some rules ... but why, really, do you want to replace the HCAR with
anything? What do you dislike about it?

Cheers,
  Andres
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Re: haskell.org libraries and tools page needs some fixing

Bjorn Bringert-2
In reply to this post by Bjorn Bringert-2
Henning Thielemann wrote:
> On Wed, 22 Mar 2006, [ISO-8859-1] Björn Bringert wrote:
>
>>It would be great if you all could have a look at the libraries pages
>>for the categories in which you are interested and make sure that:
>
> I would directly link from the table of contents to the sub-pages since
> the 'content' are only links. I would also choose some directory like
> LibrariesAndTools in order to show that the sub-pages belong to the
> Libraries_and_tools page.

Thanks for the suggestion. The pages are now linked to directly. That
made the page a lot smaller.

I didn't put the pages in a common directory, since I figured that most
of the names make sense as top-level names with the current content. For
example, I think that http://www.haskell.org/haskellwiki/GUILibraries is
appropriate for a discussion of GUI libraries. I have also added a line
at the top of each page (using Template:LibariesPage) which says that
the page is a Libraries and Tools page and links back to the main page.

/Björn
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Re: haskell.org libraries and tools page needs some fixing

Neil Mitchell
Hi,

> example, I think that http://www.haskell.org/haskellwiki/GUILibraries is

Thanks for all your work. Earlier there was a discussion about the
naming of pages, and it was specifically decided that names should be
something like:

Program_development

rather than:

ProgramDevelopment

The old wiki used to force CamelCase, but the new one doesn't, so
better named pages might help people.

Thanks

Neil
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Re: haskell.org libraries and tools page needs some fixing

Donald Bruce Stewart
In reply to this post by Bjorn Bringert-2
bringert:

> >I'm willing to start working on this, but I want to check with you guys
> >first. Any comments, ideas, or flames?
> >
> >I guess that if I start doing major stuff like chaning the mark-up, I'll
> >put a note at the top asking people to hold off editing for a short while.
>
> I have now split the huge Libraries and Tools page into about 20 smaller
> pages, all linked to from the main page, cleaned up all the mark-up, and
> marked any dead links for which there weren't obvious replacements with
> a new template: {{dead link}}. I have tried to move some entries around
> to get the "standard" ones near the top and dead ones at the bottom. I
> haved added links to a few modules in the standard libraries where I
> found it appropriate.
>
> It would be great if you all could have a look at the libraries pages
> for the categories in which you are interested and make sure that:
>
> * all the libraries that you maintain or use are listed, and that
>   the entries are reasonable accurate.

You could also perhaps add some new material by looking at the
annoucnements archive. At least this material will be recent:

    http://www.cse.unsw.edu.au/~dons/code/hwn/announce.html

-- Don
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Re: haskell.org libraries and tools page needs some fixing

Ketil Malde-2
In reply to this post by Bjorn Bringert-2
Björn Bringert <[hidden email]> writes:

> There is still a "Various" section on the main page, with things that
> I couldn't figure out where to put.

How about a "System" or similar category?  It seems it would be a
fitting place for at least HsShellScript, hMPI, and GetOpt (which is
part of the GHC libraries now, right?).

-k
--
If I haven't seen further, it is by standing in the footprints of giants

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