"Haskell is a scripting language inspired by Python."

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"Haskell is a scripting language inspired by Python."

Jonathan Geddes
This is off topic (almost regardless of the topic), but It gave me a
laugh. Hope you all enjoy it, too.

I was telling a friend about the power and elegance of Haskell. When I
mentioned that it has influenced many other programming languages,
including his favorite language (Python) he retorted by saying that I
was mistaken and it was, in fact, the other way around: Python
inspired Haskell. The following link was his source of information (or
FUD, as the case may be).

http://www.datarecoverylabs.com/ultimate-computer-language-guide.html

It's called "The *Ultimate* Computer Language Guide," and it's on the
internets, so it must be correct, right?

--Jonathan
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Re: "Haskell is a scripting language inspired by Python."

Yves Parès
Nice.
It is true that Python picked up some elements of Haskell, but now both languages are mature enough so that features can go both ways.

> It's called "The *Ultimate* Computer Language Guide," and it's on the
> internets, so it must be correct, right?

Wooow, it's barely 9 a.m. in France, it's too much irony so early in the morning... ;-)


2010/11/4 Jonathan Geddes <[hidden email]>
This is off topic (almost regardless of the topic), but It gave me a
laugh. Hope you all enjoy it, too.

I was telling a friend about the power and elegance of Haskell. When I
mentioned that it has influenced many other programming languages,
including his favorite language (Python) he retorted by saying that I
was mistaken and it was, in fact, the other way around: Python
inspired Haskell. The following link was his source of information (or
FUD, as the case may be).

http://www.datarecoverylabs.com/ultimate-computer-language-guide.html

It's called "The *Ultimate* Computer Language Guide," and it's on the
internets, so it must be correct, right?

--Jonathan
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Re: "Haskell is a scripting language inspired by Python."

Stephen Tetley-2
In reply to this post by Jonathan Geddes
My familiarity with Python is a bit rusty, but the influence of
Haskell might be over-stated.

Type classes have gone from Haskell to Clean, Mercury (others?), and
monads have gone to F# but otherwise the functional features of the
current crop Python, Ruby etc. are not much different to what has long
existed in Scheme, ML, and the pre-Haskell "tower of babel" languages
notably Miranda as it was the most visible.

Did Haskell get significant whitespace from Python - doubtful as
Python possibly wasn't visible enough at the time, but you never know.
Doesn't COBOL have significant layout anyway as an inspiration to
both?
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Re: "Haskell is a scripting language inspired by Python."

Malcolm Wallace-2
> Did Haskell get significant whitespace from Python - doubtful as
> Python possibly wasn't visible enough at the time, but you never know.

Whitespace is significant in almost every language:  foo bar /= foobar.

Using indentation for program structuring was introduced by Peter  
Landin in his ISWIM language (1966), which is where Haskell picked it  
up from (via Miranda).

See  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Off-side_rule

Regards,
     Malcolm
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Re: "Haskell is a scripting language inspired by Python."

Heinrich Apfelmus
In reply to this post by Stephen Tetley-2
Stephen Tetley wrote:
>
> Did Haskell get significant whitespace from Python - doubtful as
> Python possibly wasn't visible enough at the time, but you never know.
> Doesn't COBOL have significant layout anyway as an inspiration to
> both?

As far as I am informed, Python got the significant whitespace from
Haskell. Haskell itself (or rather the design committee) got the idea
from SASL (1976) and Miranda (1986), though it goes way back to the
1960s, as described in section 4.1 "Layout" of

   http://www.haskell.org/haskellwiki/History_of_Haskell


Regards,
Heinrich Apfelmus

--
http://apfelmus.nfshost.com

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Re: "Haskell is a scripting language inspired by Python."

Stephen Tetley-2
Python is approximately as old as Python and most likely got
indentation from ABC.

Checking on Wikipedia, one of the ABC's creators was Lambert Meertens
(famous for *-morphisms amongst other things) so there is a lineage
going back to Algol and Peter Landin / ISWIM.

PS. my fact-checking is a bit ropey, but I think my general point
stands that the current popular languages haven't taken much if
anything from Haskell, rather its predecessors in the functional
family.

On 4 November 2010 11:09, Heinrich Apfelmus <[hidden email]> wrote:

> As far as I am informed, Python got the significant whitespace from Haskell.
> Haskell itself (or rather the design committee) got the idea from SASL
> (1976) and Miranda (1986), though it goes way back to the 1960s, as
> described in section 4.1 "Layout" of
>
>  http://www.haskell.org/haskellwiki/History_of_Haskell
>
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Re: "Haskell is a scripting language inspired by Python."

Stephen Tetley-2
On 4 November 2010 12:03, Stephen Tetley <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Python is approximately as old as Python and most likely got
> indentation from ABC.

Apologies that should read - "as old as Haskell"

Obviously IDSWIM - (I _don't_ say what I mean).
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Re: "Haskell is a scripting language inspired by Python."

Jonathan Geddes
Regardless of which languages got which features for which other
languages, Haskell is surely NOT a "scripting language inspired by
python"...

Also, it was my understanding that Python got list comprehensions
straight from Haskell. Unless, of course, some of the pre-Haskells
also had this feature.

Haskell: [f x | x <- xs, x <= 15]
Python: [f(x) for x in xs if x <= 15]

The Python version reads the way I would speak the Haskell one if I
were reading code aloud, though I might say "such that" rather than
"for"

--Jonathan Geddes

On Thu, Nov 4, 2010 at 6:05 AM, Stephen Tetley <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On 4 November 2010 12:03, Stephen Tetley <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> Python is approximately as old as Python and most likely got
>> indentation from ABC.
>
> Apologies that should read - "as old as Haskell"
>
> Obviously IDSWIM - (I _don't_ say what I mean).
> _______________________________________________
> Haskell-Cafe mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
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Re: "Haskell is a scripting language inspired by Python."

Corentin Dupont
Hello,
reading this thread a question came to me:
Is there a way of automatically deriving programming languages ascendancy?

Like biologist can determine the distance between two genotypes, and determine a hierarchy between species from that.

Are you aware of researchs made in the field?

On the net I found interesting graphs but no comments on the methodology.
http://www.levenez.com/lang/
http://rigaux.org/language-study/diagram.html

Cheers,
Corentin


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Re: "Haskell is a scripting language inspired by Python."

aditya siram-2
I'm no compiler writer but as a layperson I'd guess for that you'd at least need a program that could determine if two constructs are equivalent, the Haskell and Python list comprehension example from 2 emails ago. The only way I can think to do that is to parse some source in language X and see if the AST generated is the same as language Y.

As far as something fully automated my intuition tells me that you'd need a single program that could act as a compiler and/or interpreter for all the languages you're trying to test. This is the only way, for example, to automatically determine that variable scoping works the same in Javascript and Scheme.

-deech

On Thu, Nov 4, 2010 at 10:03 AM, Dupont Corentin <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hello,
reading this thread a question came to me:
Is there a way of automatically deriving programming languages ascendancy?

Like biologist can determine the distance between two genotypes, and determine a hierarchy between species from that.

Are you aware of researchs made in the field?

On the net I found interesting graphs but no comments on the methodology.
http://www.levenez.com/lang/
http://rigaux.org/language-study/diagram.html

Cheers,
Corentin


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Re: "Haskell is a scripting language inspired by Python."

Mark Lentczner
In reply to this post by Jonathan Geddes

On Nov 3, 2010, at 7:00 PM, Jonathan Geddes wrote:
> http://www.datarecoverylabs.com/ultimate-computer-language-guide.html
>
> It's called "The *Ultimate* Computer Language Guide," and it's on the
> internets, so it must be correct, right?

Wow! Did you read the rest of that page? It is so full of fail! Can you imagine trusting your data to these people?

         Mark

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[OT] Re: [Haskell-cafe] "Haskell is a scripting language inspired by Python."

Jeremy O'Donoghue
On 4 November 2010 15:30, Mark Lentczner <[hidden email]> wrote:

On Nov 3, 2010, at 7:00 PM, Jonathan Geddes wrote:
> http://www.datarecoverylabs.com/ultimate-computer-language-guide.html
>
> It's called "The *Ultimate* Computer Language Guide," and it's on the
> internets, so it must be correct, right?

Wow! Did you read the rest of that page? It is so full of fail! Can you imagine trusting your data to these people?

Best laugh I've had in ages. Personal favourites are:

Forth [...] "the language represents two virtual stacks to accomplish algorithms"
Ruby [...] "
is often compared to Java in as much as both languages borrow object-oriented syntax pioneered by small talk[sic]"
Tcl [...] "
is extensible through high level languages like Java"

Perhaps we should help them to update their page. I suggest

"Haskell was developed by Isaac Newton in the 15th Century as a tool to help his investigations into the Alchemic arts. It was rediscovered in the 1980s by three Cambridge undergraduates who were browsing through Newton's laboratory notebooks looking for smutty jokes in the margins, and has since developed into an elaborate joke perpetrated by elite computer scientists who believe that predictable order of execution is contrary to natural law. The current version of Haskell is Haskell 1714, which adds syntactic sugar for Zygohistomorphic Premorphisms to the original language definition of 1693."
 
        Mark

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Re: [OT] Re: [Haskell-cafe] "Haskell is a scripting language inspired by Python."

Dan Doel
On Thursday 04 November 2010 12:12:51 pm Jeremy O'Donoghue wrote:

> Best laugh I've had in ages. Personal favourites are:

The Forth one got me. I also like:

OCaml: "OCaml is an attempt to implement object-oriented syntax in Caml. It is
related to SML."

No mention of what Caml is, by the way. Hope you already know that. Maybe the
SML entry will help?

SML: "SML is the current descendant of the ML programming language. The most
common current implementation is Moscow."

Nope, it has no information on what ML is.

-- Dan
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Re: "Haskell is a scripting language inspired by Python."

Stephen Tetley-2
In reply to this post by Jonathan Geddes
ZF Expressions (aka list comprehensions) date to at least David
Turner's KRC (St. Andrews Static Language) and Rod Burstall and John
Darlington's Hope c.1980. Maybe they were present in NPL, the
predecessor of Hope before that. The Hope paper nods to SETL as an
influence.

Without interviewing the people concerned its probably impossible to
actually find out what influenced what - even though list
comprehensions have a long history the designers of Python might have
only seen them in Haskell so Python could well have "got" them from
Haskell.

Hope - An Experimental Applicative language
http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/summary?doi=10.1.1.18.8135

The language guide is truly strange - maybe it was written by work
experience students. The Icon entry made me smile, although the SML
entry where they missed a crucial suffix is good too - "The current
implementation is Moscow" - what, the city implements a programming a
language?
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Re: "Haskell is a scripting language inspired by Python."

aditya siram-2
Not a city, but perhaps an island [1]. Sorry, it had to be done.
-deech

[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Java

On Thu, Nov 4, 2010 at 11:51 AM, Stephen Tetley <[hidden email]> wrote:
ZF Expressions (aka list comprehensions) date to at least David
Turner's KRC (St. Andrews Static Language) and Rod Burstall and John
Darlington's Hope c.1980. Maybe they were present in NPL, the
predecessor of Hope before that. The Hope paper nods to SETL as an
influence.

Without interviewing the people concerned its probably impossible to
actually find out what influenced what - even though list
comprehensions have a long history the designers of Python might have
only seen them in Haskell so Python could well have "got" them from
Haskell.

Hope - An Experimental Applicative language
http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/summary?doi=10.1.1.18.8135

The language guide is truly strange - maybe it was written by work
experience students. The Icon entry made me smile, although the SML
entry where they missed a crucial suffix is good too - "The current
implementation is Moscow" - what, the city implements a programming a
language?
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Re: "Haskell is a scripting language inspired by Python."

Andrew Coppin
In reply to this post by Jonathan Geddes
On 04/11/2010 02:16 PM, Jonathan Geddes wrote:
> Regardless of which languages got which features for which other
> languages, Haskell is surely NOT a "scripting language inspired by
> python"...

Affirmative.

It's a full-scale programming language (although I gather folks do use
it for scripting too), and while it may or may not contain features that
are also in Python, it is manifestly /not/ "inspired by" Python. Clearly
it was inspired my Miranda and the host of similar-yet-incompatible
languages like it. (The design goal was to replace these languages,
after all.)

On a somewhat tangental note: It seems increadible to me that Haskell
was invented in 1990, and Miranda way back in 1985. At the same time,
Commodore Business Machines released the iconic Commodore 64 in 1982,
and most of the civilised people of the world spent the next 10 years or
so writing computer programs in BASIC. It's a rather sobering thought to
think that way back in those long-lost days of 8-bit microprocessors,
RF-modulated graphics and unstructured programming, there were people
somewhere working on languages such as Miranda. I mean, comparing BASIC
to FP is like comparing a water pistol to a tactical thermonuclear
device. (!) Where the heck did all this stuff happen?! Can you actually
run something like Haskell with mere kilobytes of RAM?

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Re: "Haskell is a scripting language inspired by Python."

Alexander Solla-2
In reply to this post by Stephen Tetley-2

On Nov 4, 2010, at 9:51 AM, Stephen Tetley wrote:

Without interviewing the people concerned its probably impossible to
actually find out what influenced what - even though list
comprehensions have a long history the designers of Python might have
only seen them in Haskell so Python could well have "got" them from
Haskell.

The Python people have explicitly said they got the idea and syntax from Haskell.


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Re: "Haskell is a scripting language inspired by Python."

Henning Thielemann
In reply to this post by Andrew Coppin

On Thu, 4 Nov 2010, Andrew Coppin wrote:

> It's a full-scale programming language (although I gather folks do use it for
> scripting too), and while it may or may not contain features that are also in
> Python, it is manifestly /not/ "inspired by" Python. Clearly it was inspired
> my Miranda and the host of similar-yet-incompatible languages like it. (The
> design goal was to replace these languages, after all.)
>
> On a somewhat tangental note: It seems increadible to me that Haskell was
> invented in 1990, and Miranda way back in 1985. At the same time, Commodore
> Business Machines released the iconic Commodore 64 in 1982, and most of the
> civilised people of the world spent the next 10 years or so writing computer
> programs in BASIC. It's a rather sobering thought to think that way back in
> those long-lost days of 8-bit microprocessors, RF-modulated graphics and
> unstructured programming, there were people somewhere working on languages
> such as Miranda. I mean, comparing BASIC to FP is like comparing a water
> pistol to a tactical thermonuclear device. (!) Where the heck did all this
> stuff happen?! Can you actually run something like Haskell with mere
> kilobytes of RAM?

For me at least 1985 is the year, where the Amiga 1000 was released. At
this time, machines with a MC 68020 were refered to as "Work stations",
what for me meant something like "expensive professional computer". For
Amiga with some megabytes RAM and a CD drive we had the Geek-Gadgets-2-CD
in 1997 that contained Gofer. However at this time I was glad to program
in object oriented style and especially GUIs with OOP.
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Re: "Haskell is a scripting language inspired by Python."

Ketil Malde-5
In reply to this post by Andrew Coppin
Andrew Coppin <[hidden email]> writes:

> On a somewhat tangental note: It seems increadible to me that Haskell
> was invented in 1990, and Miranda way back in 1985. At the same time,
> Commodore Business Machines released the iconic Commodore 64 in 1982,

It is amazing - although as you point out, computers weren't very
capable, so although it may have been possible to run Gofer on an Amiga,
it was not what the 1337 hackers used for their demos.

But it shows how incredibly inert the field of computer science really
is.  Or perhaps, how far software engineering is removed from computer
science.

Makes you wonder what the current day developments are that will be
fighting for a corner of the mainstream in thirty years.

-k
--
If I haven't seen further, it is by standing in the footprints of giants
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Re: "Haskell is a scripting language inspired by Python."

Andrew Coppin
In reply to this post by Henning Thielemann
On 04/11/2010 08:17 PM, Henning Thielemann wrote:

>
> On Thu, 4 Nov 2010, Andrew Coppin wrote:
>
>> On a somewhat tangental note: It seems increadible to me that Haskell
>> was invented in 1990, and Miranda way back in 1985. At the same time,
>> Commodore Business Machines released the iconic Commodore 64 in 1982,
>> and most of the civilised people of the world spent the next 10 years
>> or so writing computer programs in BASIC. It's a rather sobering
>> thought to think that way back in those long-lost days of 8-bit
>> microprocessors, RF-modulated graphics and unstructured programming,
>> there were people somewhere working on languages such as Miranda. I
>> mean, comparing BASIC to FP is like comparing a water pistol to a
>> tactical thermonuclear device. (!) Where the heck did all this stuff
>> happen?! Can you actually run something like Haskell with mere
>> kilobytes of RAM?
>
> For me at least 1985 is the year, where the Amiga 1000 was released.
> At this time, machines with a MC 68020 were refered to as "Work
> stations", what for me meant something like "expensive professional
> computer". For Amiga with some megabytes RAM and a CD drive we had the
> Geek-Gadgets-2-CD in 1997 that contained Gofer. However at this time I
> was glad to program in object oriented style and especially GUIs with
> OOP.
>

I didn't get to see the Amiga 600 until at least five or six years later
than that. (It's actually news to me that the Amiga line is that old.)
And I spent most of my time programming it in Pascal (or AMOS BASIC -
but that's not really "BASIC" any more). And between that, there was
Borland Turbo Pascal 5.5 for MS-DOS, if you were forced to use a PC.
It's scary to think that even way back then, vastly superior languages
were being used in secret...

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