random library: Request for Carter Tazio Schonwald (@cartazio) to step down as maintainer with immediate effect

classic Classic list List threaded Threaded
15 messages Options
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

random library: Request for Carter Tazio Schonwald (@cartazio) to step down as maintainer with immediate effect

Profpatsch

I posted this comment on the thread of
https://github.com/haskell/random/pull/62#issuecomment-638088258

Since it was deleted and the comment thread locked by Carter,
I am escalating this request to the mailing list, where it cannot be
deleted.

Profpatsch <[hidden email]> writes:

> @cartazio Please take even a fleeting look at https://github.com/idontgetoutmuch/random/pulls?q=is%3Apr+is%3Aclosed, notice the amount of discussion and the timeline.
>
> This is the full-time work of a team of half a dozen of experts, probably breaching one man-year of effort, easily.
> It cannot just be discarded out of hand.
>
> I have been following the discussions (spread over mailinglists, issue trackers and elsewhere), and I propose you hand over maintainership of `random` as a base package.

A parallel issue with relevant discussion can be found at
https://github.com/haskell/random/pull/61

I am writing this email from my personal account, because I fear for
the health of the Haskell ecosystem, and I think Carter’s behaviour is
extremely detrimental to it.

I think a lot of other people feel the same way, so I encourage you to
add your voice publicly.

~ Profpatsch
_______________________________________________
Libraries mailing list
[hidden email]
http://mail.haskell.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/libraries
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: random library: Request for Carter Tazio Schonwald (@cartazio) to step down as maintainer with immediate effect

Roman Cheplyaka-2
Hi Carter,

random is a "public utility" library, and as such should be maintained by the community.

A group of qualified engineers (which you were welcome to join) have carefully prepared a release, to which it sounds like you don't have any specific technical objections.

Can you explain why they should not be able to make that release, or why you should be a gatekeeper of this process?

I appreciate the difficulty of the situation in which the U.S. is right now, but to me, this is just another reason not to have a single person in charge of a core library.

Roman

On 03/06/2020 17.02, Profpatsch wrote:

>
> I posted this comment on the thread of
> https://github.com/haskell/random/pull/62#issuecomment-638088258
>
> Since it was deleted and the comment thread locked by Carter,
> I am escalating this request to the mailing list, where it cannot be
> deleted.
>
> Profpatsch <[hidden email]> writes:
>
>> @cartazio Please take even a fleeting look at https://github.com/idontgetoutmuch/random/pulls?q=is%3Apr+is%3Aclosed, notice the amount of discussion and the timeline.
>>
>> This is the full-time work of a team of half a dozen of experts, probably breaching one man-year of effort, easily.
>> It cannot just be discarded out of hand.
>>
>> I have been following the discussions (spread over mailinglists, issue trackers and elsewhere), and I propose you hand over maintainership of `random` as a base package.
>
> A parallel issue with relevant discussion can be found at
> https://github.com/haskell/random/pull/61
>
> I am writing this email from my personal account, because I fear for
> the health of the Haskell ecosystem, and I think Carter’s behaviour is
> extremely detrimental to it.
>
> I think a lot of other people feel the same way, so I encourage you to
> add your voice publicly.
>
> ~ Profpatsch
_______________________________________________
Libraries mailing list
[hidden email]
http://mail.haskell.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/libraries
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: random library: Request for Carter Tazio Schonwald (@cartazio) to step down as maintainer with immediate effect

Gershom Bazerman
I’ve reached out to a few members of the libraries committee directly to ask the committee to take charge and mediate this.

—Gershom
On Jun 3, 2020, 11:51 AM -0400, Roman Cheplyaka <[hidden email]>, wrote:
Hi Carter,

random is a "public utility" library, and as such should be maintained by the community.

A group of qualified engineers (which you were welcome to join) have carefully prepared a release, to which it sounds like you don't have any specific technical objections.

Can you explain why they should not be able to make that release, or why you should be a gatekeeper of this process?

I appreciate the difficulty of the situation in which the U.S. is right now, but to me, this is just another reason not to have a single person in charge of a core library.

Roman

On 03/06/2020 17.02, Profpatsch wrote:

I posted this comment on the thread of
https://github.com/haskell/random/pull/62#issuecomment-638088258

Since it was deleted and the comment thread locked by Carter,
I am escalating this request to the mailing list, where it cannot be
deleted.

Profpatsch <[hidden email]> writes:

@cartazio Please take even a fleeting look at https://github.com/idontgetoutmuch/random/pulls?q=is%3Apr+is%3Aclosed, notice the amount of discussion and the timeline.

This is the full-time work of a team of half a dozen of experts, probably breaching one man-year of effort, easily.
It cannot just be discarded out of hand.

I have been following the discussions (spread over mailinglists, issue trackers and elsewhere), and I propose you hand over maintainership of `random` as a base package.

A parallel issue with relevant discussion can be found at
https://github.com/haskell/random/pull/61

I am writing this email from my personal account, because I fear for
the health of the Haskell ecosystem, and I think Carter’s behaviour is
extremely detrimental to it.

I think a lot of other people feel the same way, so I encourage you to
add your voice publicly.

~ Profpatsch
_______________________________________________
Libraries mailing list
[hidden email]
http://mail.haskell.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/libraries

_______________________________________________
Libraries mailing list
[hidden email]
http://mail.haskell.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/libraries
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: random library: Request for Carter Tazio Schonwald (@cartazio) to step down as maintainer with immediate effect

Alexey Khudyakov
In reply to this post by Profpatsch
On 03.06.2020 17:02, Profpatsch wrote:
> I think a lot of other people feel the same way, so I encourage you to
> add your voice publicly.

Vector needs maintainers too. For the last few years it was maintained
in very dysfunctional manner. Last release 0.12.1 (2020.02.01) contained
several bug fixes and improvements that lived in master for years(!).
Here is incomplete list:

  - Empty storable vectors in GHCi error with divide by zero. #167
     Reported: 2017.05.01
     Fixed:    2017.05.03
  - Add Unbox instances for everything in base #185, #194
     Merged: 2018.02.12
  - Add NFData1 instance for boxed vectors #233
     Merged: 2019.01.14
  - Implement partitionWith #176
     Merged: 2017.06.05

For reference 0.12.0.3 was uploaded on 2019.04.30. Discrepancy between
state of master and what is released on hackage created a lot of
questions. On 2019.09.30 Alexey Kuleshevich reported issue #258:

 > This seems like a related ticket #167 that was fixed on master over
 > two years ago in this commit 3e2bd9f, but somehow was never released
 >
 > Guys, what's going on with vector release process? Some unknown
branch > is being used for releases, but all changes go to master? Not
only bug > fixes are not getting released on hackage, but new tickets are
 > constantly being opened because of this problem, here are just couple
 > that I've seen recently: #256 #255

To which Carter promptly responded:

 > V0.12 branch series is the most recent release.
 >
 > Unit is semanticly uniformstive for strict array representations.
 >
 > I’m going to edit the ticket title and your message to focus on the
 > constructive parts. This complaining element doesn’t help anyone :)

Notably Carter removed question about release process from issue text.
Then discussion about release process unfolded and resulted in exactly
nothing being done.


Questions about release didn't stop and on 2019.12.18 two we asked.
One by Callan McGill (#264)
 > Currently you cannot use an Unboxed vector with Any, All, Sum,
 > Product. I think there should be instances of the form:

Carter didn't answer it but another one by Fumiaki Kinoshita started
discussion (#265):
 > #185 is merged two years ago, and there are various improvements/fixes
 > but I don't see anything on Hackage. What's the blocker? Is there
 > anything I can help?

Carter then responded:
 > I’m doing the vector backlog this week and next week over the
 > holidays. Thanks for your patience.

Quite predictably nothing happened again. Question about release and
adding more maintainers we asked without any real answer. In the end
issue was closed  with rather bizarre message:

 > Locking again because a policy conversation on an issue tracker is not
 > the right forum and I’m cutting a release shortly. “Pick a person”
 > isn’t a very precise strategy. Iin all for having another maintainer
 > but who.
 >
 > Let’s discuss this in email or video call but not drive by ticket
 > comments.

At some later point issue was removed altogether. Discussion then moved
to #266 and finally some useful work by several people started being
done. Vector 0.12.1 was released on 2020.02.01. Notable changes from
release branch (it isn't master) are still not merged back to master (#302).


So what we have at this point:

  - Vector is basically unmaintained. Release process is broken. PRs get
    merged and then then just hang around without being release

  - Even worse he is very allergic to questions about release policy,
    maintaiership, etc. He locks and even deletes(!) issues. This is what
    caused parent post.

All in all vector badly needs maintainers.
_______________________________________________
Libraries mailing list
[hidden email]
http://mail.haskell.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/libraries
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: random library: Request for Carter Tazio Schonwald (@cartazio) to step down as maintainer with immediate effect

David Feuer
In reply to this post by Profpatsch
I urge everyone to direct all further comments on this topic to the current chair of the CLC. There is nothing to be gained from public discussion of a "personnel" matter.

On Wed, Jun 3, 2020, 10:03 AM Profpatsch <[hidden email]> wrote:

I posted this comment on the thread of
https://github.com/haskell/random/pull/62#issuecomment-638088258

Since it was deleted and the comment thread locked by Carter,
I am escalating this request to the mailing list, where it cannot be
deleted.

Profpatsch <[hidden email]> writes:

> @cartazio Please take even a fleeting look at https://github.com/idontgetoutmuch/random/pulls?q=is%3Apr+is%3Aclosed, notice the amount of discussion and the timeline.
>
> This is the full-time work of a team of half a dozen of experts, probably breaching one man-year of effort, easily.
> It cannot just be discarded out of hand.
>
> I have been following the discussions (spread over mailinglists, issue trackers and elsewhere), and I propose you hand over maintainership of `random` as a base package.

A parallel issue with relevant discussion can be found at
https://github.com/haskell/random/pull/61

I am writing this email from my personal account, because I fear for
the health of the Haskell ecosystem, and I think Carter’s behaviour is
extremely detrimental to it.

I think a lot of other people feel the same way, so I encourage you to
add your voice publicly.

~ Profpatsch
_______________________________________________
Libraries mailing list
[hidden email]
http://mail.haskell.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/libraries

_______________________________________________
Libraries mailing list
[hidden email]
http://mail.haskell.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/libraries
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: random library: Request for Carter Tazio Schonwald (@cartazio) to step down as maintainer with immediate effect

chessai .
Yes, please contact me about these concerns. I am reachable via email at [hidden email]

On Wed, Jun 3, 2020, 12:24 PM David Feuer <[hidden email]> wrote:
I urge everyone to direct all further comments on this topic to the current chair of the CLC. There is nothing to be gained from public discussion of a "personnel" matter.

On Wed, Jun 3, 2020, 10:03 AM Profpatsch <[hidden email]> wrote:

I posted this comment on the thread of
https://github.com/haskell/random/pull/62#issuecomment-638088258

Since it was deleted and the comment thread locked by Carter,
I am escalating this request to the mailing list, where it cannot be
deleted.

Profpatsch <[hidden email]> writes:

> @cartazio Please take even a fleeting look at https://github.com/idontgetoutmuch/random/pulls?q=is%3Apr+is%3Aclosed, notice the amount of discussion and the timeline.
>
> This is the full-time work of a team of half a dozen of experts, probably breaching one man-year of effort, easily.
> It cannot just be discarded out of hand.
>
> I have been following the discussions (spread over mailinglists, issue trackers and elsewhere), and I propose you hand over maintainership of `random` as a base package.

A parallel issue with relevant discussion can be found at
https://github.com/haskell/random/pull/61

I am writing this email from my personal account, because I fear for
the health of the Haskell ecosystem, and I think Carter’s behaviour is
extremely detrimental to it.

I think a lot of other people feel the same way, so I encourage you to
add your voice publicly.

~ Profpatsch
_______________________________________________
Libraries mailing list
[hidden email]
http://mail.haskell.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/libraries
_______________________________________________
Libraries mailing list
[hidden email]
http://mail.haskell.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/libraries

_______________________________________________
Libraries mailing list
[hidden email]
http://mail.haskell.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/libraries
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: random library: Request for Carter Tazio Schonwald (@cartazio) to step down as maintainer with immediate effect

Profpatsch

chessai . <[hidden email]> writes:

> Yes, please contact me about these concerns. I am reachable via email at
> [hidden email].

Great, I’m looking forward to seeing this matter resolved swiftly.

I am a fan of discussing community matters openly, but everybody can
of course decide whether they want to speak up publicly or privately
talk to a trustee.


>
> On Wed, Jun 3, 2020, 12:24 PM David Feuer <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> I urge everyone to direct all further comments on this topic to the
>> current chair of the CLC. There is nothing to be gained from public
>> discussion of a "personnel" matter.
>>
>> On Wed, Jun 3, 2020, 10:03 AM Profpatsch <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> I posted this comment on the thread of
>>> https://github.com/haskell/random/pull/62#issuecomment-638088258
>>>
>>> Since it was deleted and the comment thread locked by Carter,
>>> I am escalating this request to the mailing list, where it cannot be
>>> deleted.
>>>
>>> Profpatsch <[hidden email]> writes:
>>>
>>> > @cartazio Please take even a fleeting look at
>>> https://github.com/idontgetoutmuch/random/pulls?q=is%3Apr+is%3Aclosed,
>>> notice the amount of discussion and the timeline.
>>> >
>>> > This is the full-time work of a team of half a dozen of experts,
>>> probably breaching one man-year of effort, easily.
>>> > It cannot just be discarded out of hand.
>>> >
>>> > I have been following the discussions (spread over mailinglists, issue
>>> trackers and elsewhere), and I propose you hand over maintainership of
>>> `random` as a base package.
>>>
>>> A parallel issue with relevant discussion can be found at
>>> https://github.com/haskell/random/pull/61
>>>
>>> I am writing this email from my personal account, because I fear for
>>> the health of the Haskell ecosystem, and I think Carter’s behaviour is
>>> extremely detrimental to it.
>>>
>>> I think a lot of other people feel the same way, so I encourage you to
>>> add your voice publicly.
>>>
>>> ~ Profpatsch
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Libraries mailing list
>>> [hidden email]
>>> http://mail.haskell.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/libraries
>>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Libraries mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> http://mail.haskell.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/libraries
>>
_______________________________________________
Libraries mailing list
[hidden email]
http://mail.haskell.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/libraries
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: random library: Request for Carter Tazio Schonwald (@cartazio) to step down as maintainer with immediate effect

Carter Schonwald
i've added a few folks at uploader/contributor bits, and this is generally something all core libraries need. i really prefer discussion via video call or voice chat or 1-1 neutral language..

yesterday i was pretty laid up with some pretty bad asthma etc and allergy drugs, and I'm sorry if that rubbed you the wrong way . 

On Thu, Jun 4, 2020 at 4:50 AM Profpatsch <[hidden email]> wrote:

chessai . <[hidden email]> writes:

> Yes, please contact me about these concerns. I am reachable via email at
> [hidden email].

Great, I’m looking forward to seeing this matter resolved swiftly.

I am a fan of discussing community matters openly, but everybody can
of course decide whether they want to speak up publicly or privately
talk to a trustee.


>
> On Wed, Jun 3, 2020, 12:24 PM David Feuer <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> I urge everyone to direct all further comments on this topic to the
>> current chair of the CLC. There is nothing to be gained from public
>> discussion of a "personnel" matter.
>>
>> On Wed, Jun 3, 2020, 10:03 AM Profpatsch <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> I posted this comment on the thread of
>>> https://github.com/haskell/random/pull/62#issuecomment-638088258
>>>
>>> Since it was deleted and the comment thread locked by Carter,
>>> I am escalating this request to the mailing list, where it cannot be
>>> deleted.
>>>
>>> Profpatsch <[hidden email]> writes:
>>>
>>> > @cartazio Please take even a fleeting look at
>>> https://github.com/idontgetoutmuch/random/pulls?q=is%3Apr+is%3Aclosed,
>>> notice the amount of discussion and the timeline.
>>> >
>>> > This is the full-time work of a team of half a dozen of experts,
>>> probably breaching one man-year of effort, easily.
>>> > It cannot just be discarded out of hand.
>>> >
>>> > I have been following the discussions (spread over mailinglists, issue
>>> trackers and elsewhere), and I propose you hand over maintainership of
>>> `random` as a base package.
>>>
>>> A parallel issue with relevant discussion can be found at
>>> https://github.com/haskell/random/pull/61
>>>
>>> I am writing this email from my personal account, because I fear for
>>> the health of the Haskell ecosystem, and I think Carter’s behaviour is
>>> extremely detrimental to it.
>>>
>>> I think a lot of other people feel the same way, so I encourage you to
>>> add your voice publicly.
>>>
>>> ~ Profpatsch
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Libraries mailing list
>>> [hidden email]
>>> http://mail.haskell.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/libraries
>>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Libraries mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> http://mail.haskell.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/libraries
>>
_______________________________________________
Libraries mailing list
[hidden email]
http://mail.haskell.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/libraries

_______________________________________________
Libraries mailing list
[hidden email]
http://mail.haskell.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/libraries
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: random library: Request for Carter Tazio Schonwald (@cartazio) to step down as maintainer with immediate effect

Carter Schonwald
and more details to follow in a few days, i'm pretty fried, there was a police shooting this morning 1 block from my aparment plus a whole mess of stuff going on in lowermanhattan where i live most of the time this week thats got me on edge and stressed out of my gourd.

On Thu, Jun 4, 2020 at 6:24 PM Carter Schonwald <[hidden email]> wrote:
i've added a few folks at uploader/contributor bits, and this is generally something all core libraries need. i really prefer discussion via video call or voice chat or 1-1 neutral language..

yesterday i was pretty laid up with some pretty bad asthma etc and allergy drugs, and I'm sorry if that rubbed you the wrong way . 

On Thu, Jun 4, 2020 at 4:50 AM Profpatsch <[hidden email]> wrote:

chessai . <[hidden email]> writes:

> Yes, please contact me about these concerns. I am reachable via email at
> [hidden email].

Great, I’m looking forward to seeing this matter resolved swiftly.

I am a fan of discussing community matters openly, but everybody can
of course decide whether they want to speak up publicly or privately
talk to a trustee.


>
> On Wed, Jun 3, 2020, 12:24 PM David Feuer <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> I urge everyone to direct all further comments on this topic to the
>> current chair of the CLC. There is nothing to be gained from public
>> discussion of a "personnel" matter.
>>
>> On Wed, Jun 3, 2020, 10:03 AM Profpatsch <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> I posted this comment on the thread of
>>> https://github.com/haskell/random/pull/62#issuecomment-638088258
>>>
>>> Since it was deleted and the comment thread locked by Carter,
>>> I am escalating this request to the mailing list, where it cannot be
>>> deleted.
>>>
>>> Profpatsch <[hidden email]> writes:
>>>
>>> > @cartazio Please take even a fleeting look at
>>> https://github.com/idontgetoutmuch/random/pulls?q=is%3Apr+is%3Aclosed,
>>> notice the amount of discussion and the timeline.
>>> >
>>> > This is the full-time work of a team of half a dozen of experts,
>>> probably breaching one man-year of effort, easily.
>>> > It cannot just be discarded out of hand.
>>> >
>>> > I have been following the discussions (spread over mailinglists, issue
>>> trackers and elsewhere), and I propose you hand over maintainership of
>>> `random` as a base package.
>>>
>>> A parallel issue with relevant discussion can be found at
>>> https://github.com/haskell/random/pull/61
>>>
>>> I am writing this email from my personal account, because I fear for
>>> the health of the Haskell ecosystem, and I think Carter’s behaviour is
>>> extremely detrimental to it.
>>>
>>> I think a lot of other people feel the same way, so I encourage you to
>>> add your voice publicly.
>>>
>>> ~ Profpatsch
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Libraries mailing list
>>> [hidden email]
>>> http://mail.haskell.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/libraries
>>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Libraries mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> http://mail.haskell.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/libraries
>>
_______________________________________________
Libraries mailing list
[hidden email]
http://mail.haskell.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/libraries

_______________________________________________
Libraries mailing list
[hidden email]
http://mail.haskell.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/libraries
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: random library: Request for Carter Tazio Schonwald (@cartazio) to step down as maintainer with immediate effect

Fumiaki Kinoshita
For example video call is not a great method for me because of the following reasons:

* I'm not a good English speaker (especially I sometimes have difficulty with colloquial American English)
* I live in a different timezone
* I prefer open communication 

Although it's totally fine that you have a preference, I have no doubt that core library maintenance should have more acceptance and transparency.

I hesitated talking about this because issues might get locked/edited/deleted, and the participants might get accused of being "thick headed assholes" again like you did in https://github.com/haskell/vector/issues/267#issuecomment-579588727, but I must say:
Frankly, it feels extremely unfair that you ask us to focus on "technical matters" (which excludes maintenance for some reason) only, while you frequently use non-technical reasons (your diseases and the situation in New York) as an excuse. Your asthma doesn't rub me in the wrong way; your tyrannous behaviour does. With all due respect I suggest you not to use CLC privileges to cope with your personal stresses.

2020年6月5日(金) 7:29 Carter Schonwald <[hidden email]>:
and more details to follow in a few days, i'm pretty fried, there was a police shooting this morning 1 block from my aparment plus a whole mess of stuff going on in lowermanhattan where i live most of the time this week thats got me on edge and stressed out of my gourd.

On Thu, Jun 4, 2020 at 6:24 PM Carter Schonwald <[hidden email]> wrote:
i've added a few folks at uploader/contributor bits, and this is generally something all core libraries need. i really prefer discussion via video call or voice chat or 1-1 neutral language..

yesterday i was pretty laid up with some pretty bad asthma etc and allergy drugs, and I'm sorry if that rubbed you the wrong way . 

On Thu, Jun 4, 2020 at 4:50 AM Profpatsch <[hidden email]> wrote:

chessai . <[hidden email]> writes:

> Yes, please contact me about these concerns. I am reachable via email at
> [hidden email].

Great, I’m looking forward to seeing this matter resolved swiftly.

I am a fan of discussing community matters openly, but everybody can
of course decide whether they want to speak up publicly or privately
talk to a trustee.


>
> On Wed, Jun 3, 2020, 12:24 PM David Feuer <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> I urge everyone to direct all further comments on this topic to the
>> current chair of the CLC. There is nothing to be gained from public
>> discussion of a "personnel" matter.
>>
>> On Wed, Jun 3, 2020, 10:03 AM Profpatsch <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> I posted this comment on the thread of
>>> https://github.com/haskell/random/pull/62#issuecomment-638088258
>>>
>>> Since it was deleted and the comment thread locked by Carter,
>>> I am escalating this request to the mailing list, where it cannot be
>>> deleted.
>>>
>>> Profpatsch <[hidden email]> writes:
>>>
>>> > @cartazio Please take even a fleeting look at
>>> https://github.com/idontgetoutmuch/random/pulls?q=is%3Apr+is%3Aclosed,
>>> notice the amount of discussion and the timeline.
>>> >
>>> > This is the full-time work of a team of half a dozen of experts,
>>> probably breaching one man-year of effort, easily.
>>> > It cannot just be discarded out of hand.
>>> >
>>> > I have been following the discussions (spread over mailinglists, issue
>>> trackers and elsewhere), and I propose you hand over maintainership of
>>> `random` as a base package.
>>>
>>> A parallel issue with relevant discussion can be found at
>>> https://github.com/haskell/random/pull/61
>>>
>>> I am writing this email from my personal account, because I fear for
>>> the health of the Haskell ecosystem, and I think Carter’s behaviour is
>>> extremely detrimental to it.
>>>
>>> I think a lot of other people feel the same way, so I encourage you to
>>> add your voice publicly.
>>>
>>> ~ Profpatsch
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Libraries mailing list
>>> [hidden email]
>>> http://mail.haskell.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/libraries
>>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Libraries mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> http://mail.haskell.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/libraries
>>
_______________________________________________
Libraries mailing list
[hidden email]
http://mail.haskell.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/libraries
_______________________________________________
Libraries mailing list
[hidden email]
http://mail.haskell.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/libraries

_______________________________________________
Libraries mailing list
[hidden email]
http://mail.haskell.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/libraries
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: random library: Request for Carter Tazio Schonwald (@cartazio) to step down as maintainer with immediate effect

Zemyla
So you're saying that the fact that there's basically a civil war and pandemic going on is no excuse to respond to e-mails. And you're calling his behavior "tyrannous" when there are literal tyrants shooting tear gas at civilians.

I gotta admit, this makes me disinclined to believe you're acting in good faith. Sometimes shit happens to good people, and someone who can't show a little compassion in these (pardon the cliche) unprecedented times is not someone I want anywhere involved in package management.

On Fri, Jun 5, 2020, 02:18 Fumiaki Kinoshita <[hidden email]> wrote:
For example video call is not a great method for me because of the following reasons:

* I'm not a good English speaker (especially I sometimes have difficulty with colloquial American English)
* I live in a different timezone
* I prefer open communication 

Although it's totally fine that you have a preference, I have no doubt that core library maintenance should have more acceptance and transparency.

I hesitated talking about this because issues might get locked/edited/deleted, and the participants might get accused of being "thick headed assholes" again like you did in https://github.com/haskell/vector/issues/267#issuecomment-579588727, but I must say:
Frankly, it feels extremely unfair that you ask us to focus on "technical matters" (which excludes maintenance for some reason) only, while you frequently use non-technical reasons (your diseases and the situation in New York) as an excuse. Your asthma doesn't rub me in the wrong way; your tyrannous behaviour does. With all due respect I suggest you not to use CLC privileges to cope with your personal stresses.

2020年6月5日(金) 7:29 Carter Schonwald <[hidden email]>:
and more details to follow in a few days, i'm pretty fried, there was a police shooting this morning 1 block from my aparment plus a whole mess of stuff going on in lowermanhattan where i live most of the time this week thats got me on edge and stressed out of my gourd.

On Thu, Jun 4, 2020 at 6:24 PM Carter Schonwald <[hidden email]> wrote:
i've added a few folks at uploader/contributor bits, and this is generally something all core libraries need. i really prefer discussion via video call or voice chat or 1-1 neutral language..

yesterday i was pretty laid up with some pretty bad asthma etc and allergy drugs, and I'm sorry if that rubbed you the wrong way . 

On Thu, Jun 4, 2020 at 4:50 AM Profpatsch <[hidden email]> wrote:

chessai . <[hidden email]> writes:

> Yes, please contact me about these concerns. I am reachable via email at
> [hidden email].

Great, I’m looking forward to seeing this matter resolved swiftly.

I am a fan of discussing community matters openly, but everybody can
of course decide whether they want to speak up publicly or privately
talk to a trustee.


>
> On Wed, Jun 3, 2020, 12:24 PM David Feuer <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> I urge everyone to direct all further comments on this topic to the
>> current chair of the CLC. There is nothing to be gained from public
>> discussion of a "personnel" matter.
>>
>> On Wed, Jun 3, 2020, 10:03 AM Profpatsch <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> I posted this comment on the thread of
>>> https://github.com/haskell/random/pull/62#issuecomment-638088258
>>>
>>> Since it was deleted and the comment thread locked by Carter,
>>> I am escalating this request to the mailing list, where it cannot be
>>> deleted.
>>>
>>> Profpatsch <[hidden email]> writes:
>>>
>>> > @cartazio Please take even a fleeting look at
>>> https://github.com/idontgetoutmuch/random/pulls?q=is%3Apr+is%3Aclosed,
>>> notice the amount of discussion and the timeline.
>>> >
>>> > This is the full-time work of a team of half a dozen of experts,
>>> probably breaching one man-year of effort, easily.
>>> > It cannot just be discarded out of hand.
>>> >
>>> > I have been following the discussions (spread over mailinglists, issue
>>> trackers and elsewhere), and I propose you hand over maintainership of
>>> `random` as a base package.
>>>
>>> A parallel issue with relevant discussion can be found at
>>> https://github.com/haskell/random/pull/61
>>>
>>> I am writing this email from my personal account, because I fear for
>>> the health of the Haskell ecosystem, and I think Carter’s behaviour is
>>> extremely detrimental to it.
>>>
>>> I think a lot of other people feel the same way, so I encourage you to
>>> add your voice publicly.
>>>
>>> ~ Profpatsch
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Libraries mailing list
>>> [hidden email]
>>> http://mail.haskell.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/libraries
>>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Libraries mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> http://mail.haskell.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/libraries
>>
_______________________________________________
Libraries mailing list
[hidden email]
http://mail.haskell.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/libraries
_______________________________________________
Libraries mailing list
[hidden email]
http://mail.haskell.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/libraries
_______________________________________________
Libraries mailing list
[hidden email]
http://mail.haskell.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/libraries

_______________________________________________
Libraries mailing list
[hidden email]
http://mail.haskell.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/libraries
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: random library: Request for Carter Tazio Schonwald (@cartazio) to step down as maintainer with immediate effect

Mathieu Boespflug-3
Zemyla,

I would expect more charitable reception of anything said by anyone, but especially when the original author stated clearly in the very same message that they are not a native English speaker. And even if the words are to be taken on face value, do note that no one has called anyone a tyrant. Calling out specific behaviour (that predates the current pandemic) as "tyrannous" (or "tyrannical") and naming someone a tyrant is simply not the same thing.


On Fri, Jun 05, 2020 at 13:06:20, Zemyla <[hidden email]> wrote:
So you're saying that the fact that there's basically a civil war and pandemic going on is no excuse to respond to e-mails. And you're calling his behavior "tyrannous" when there are literal tyrants shooting tear gas at civilians.

I gotta admit, this makes me disinclined to believe you're acting in good faith. Sometimes shit happens to good people, and someone who can't show a little compassion in these (pardon the cliche) unprecedented times is not someone I want anywhere involved in package management.

On Fri, Jun 5, 2020, 02:18 Fumiaki Kinoshita <[hidden email]> wrote:
For example video call is not a great method for me because of the following reasons:

* I'm not a good English speaker (especially I sometimes have difficulty with colloquial American English)
* I live in a different timezone
* I prefer open communication 

Although it's totally fine that you have a preference, I have no doubt that core library maintenance should have more acceptance and transparency.

I hesitated talking about this because issues might get locked/edited/deleted, and the participants might get accused of being "thick headed assholes" again like you did in https://github.com/haskell/vector/issues/267#issuecomment-579588727, but I must say:
Frankly, it feels extremely unfair that you ask us to focus on "technical matters" (which excludes maintenance for some reason) only, while you frequently use non-technical reasons (your diseases and the situation in New York) as an excuse. Your asthma doesn't rub me in the wrong way; your tyrannous behaviour does. With all due respect I suggest you not to use CLC privileges to cope with your personal stresses.

2020年6月5日(金) 7:29 Carter Schonwald <[hidden email]>:
and more details to follow in a few days, i'm pretty fried, there was a police shooting this morning 1 block from my aparment plus a whole mess of stuff going on in lowermanhattan where i live most of the time this week thats got me on edge and stressed out of my gourd.

On Thu, Jun 4, 2020 at 6:24 PM Carter Schonwald <[hidden email]> wrote:
i've added a few folks at uploader/contributor bits, and this is generally something all core libraries need. i really prefer discussion via video call or voice chat or 1-1 neutral language..

yesterday i was pretty laid up with some pretty bad asthma etc and allergy drugs, and I'm sorry if that rubbed you the wrong way . 

On Thu, Jun 4, 2020 at 4:50 AM Profpatsch <[hidden email]> wrote:

chessai . <[hidden email]> writes:

> Yes, please contact me about these concerns. I am reachable via email at

Great, I’m looking forward to seeing this matter resolved swiftly.

I am a fan of discussing community matters openly, but everybody can
of course decide whether they want to speak up publicly or privately
talk to a trustee.


>
> On Wed, Jun 3, 2020, 12:24 PM David Feuer <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> I urge everyone to direct all further comments on this topic to the
>> current chair of the CLC. There is nothing to be gained from public
>> discussion of a "personnel" matter.
>>
>> On Wed, Jun 3, 2020, 10:03 AM Profpatsch <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> I posted this comment on the thread of
>>>
>>> Since it was deleted and the comment thread locked by Carter,
>>> I am escalating this request to the mailing list, where it cannot be
>>> deleted.
>>>
>>> Profpatsch <[hidden email]> writes:
>>>
>>> > @cartazio Please take even a fleeting look at
>>> notice the amount of discussion and the timeline.
>>> >
>>> > This is the full-time work of a team of half a dozen of experts,
>>> probably breaching one man-year of effort, easily.
>>> > It cannot just be discarded out of hand.
>>> >
>>> > I have been following the discussions (spread over mailinglists, issue
>>> trackers and elsewhere), and I propose you hand over maintainership of
>>> `random` as a base package.
>>>
>>> A parallel issue with relevant discussion can be found at
>>>
>>> I am writing this email from my personal account, because I fear for
>>> the health of the Haskell ecosystem, and I think Carter’s behaviour is
>>> extremely detrimental to it.
>>>
>>> I think a lot of other people feel the same way, so I encourage you to
>>> add your voice publicly.
>>>
>>> ~ Profpatsch
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Libraries mailing list
>>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Libraries mailing list
>>
_______________________________________________
Libraries mailing list
_______________________________________________
Libraries mailing list
_______________________________________________
Libraries mailing list

_______________________________________________
Libraries mailing list



_______________________________________________
Libraries mailing list
[hidden email]
http://mail.haskell.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/libraries
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: random library: Request for Carter Tazio Schonwald (@cartazio) to step down as maintainer with immediate effect

Alexey Kuleshevich
In reply to this post by Zemyla
I believe I was the person who initiated this whole thing therefore I feel responsible to make this conversation stop as well.

I totally understand what Carter is going through, my whole family lives in the US and I have many friends living in NY. I also understand that Carter has various issues, which he has shared with everyone over various channels. 

Carter, I really do feel compassionate for you and do personally feel bad that you have to deal with all those problems. I truly hope that you can stay strong and be able to move forward despite them. That being said, I also hope you understand that this does not mean that other members of the community have to suffer because of it. If you can't do a job, it doesn't really matter why, what matters is that you should not stay in a way when someone is willing to step up and do it for you.

Many people came forward recognizing multiple issues with a way Carter maintained community projects over the years. This was brought to the attention of CLC and there was a decision made yesterday to replace Carter as maintainer of `random` and `vector` packages. Members of CLC contacted me together with others who participated in this initiative to improve `random`, namely Dominic Stenitz, Leonhard Markert, Alexey Khudyakov and myself, and we were asked to take over the maintainership of `random`. With regards to maintainership of `vector`, it was offered to Alexey Khudyakov and myself as well.

If I understand correctly Carter is still a member of CLC, and if so he still has the authority and responsibilities that any other member of the committee possess and he is welcome to continue to oversee our work on those packages, but any maintenance related questions please address to myself and other maintainers. I personally prefer to keep as much communication public for public projects, therefore feel free to get in touch me either on newly created gitter: https://gitter.im/haskell/vector or on the corresponding issue tracker for more technical discussions.

Sincerely,
Alexey Kuleshevich 

‐‐‐‐‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐‐‐‐‐
On Friday, June 5, 2020 2:06 PM, Zemyla <[hidden email]> wrote:

So you're saying that the fact that there's basically a civil war and pandemic going on is no excuse to respond to e-mails. And you're calling his behavior "tyrannous" when there are literal tyrants shooting tear gas at civilians.

I gotta admit, this makes me disinclined to believe you're acting in good faith. Sometimes shit happens to good people, and someone who can't show a little compassion in these (pardon the cliche) unprecedented times is not someone I want anywhere involved in package management.

On Fri, Jun 5, 2020, 02:18 Fumiaki Kinoshita <[hidden email]> wrote:
For example video call is not a great method for me because of the following reasons:

* I'm not a good English speaker (especially I sometimes have difficulty with colloquial American English)
* I live in a different timezone
* I prefer open communication 

Although it's totally fine that you have a preference, I have no doubt that core library maintenance should have more acceptance and transparency.

I hesitated talking about this because issues might get locked/edited/deleted, and the participants might get accused of being "thick headed assholes" again like you did in https://github.com/haskell/vector/issues/267#issuecomment-579588727, but I must say:
Frankly, it feels extremely unfair that you ask us to focus on "technical matters" (which excludes maintenance for some reason) only, while you frequently use non-technical reasons (your diseases and the situation in New York) as an excuse. Your asthma doesn't rub me in the wrong way; your tyrannous behaviour does. With all due respect I suggest you not to use CLC privileges to cope with your personal stresses.

2020年6月5日(金) 7:29 Carter Schonwald <[hidden email]>:
and more details to follow in a few days, i'm pretty fried, there was a police shooting this morning 1 block from my aparment plus a whole mess of stuff going on in lowermanhattan where i live most of the time this week thats got me on edge and stressed out of my gourd.

On Thu, Jun 4, 2020 at 6:24 PM Carter Schonwald <[hidden email]> wrote:
i've added a few folks at uploader/contributor bits, and this is generally something all core libraries need. i really prefer discussion via video call or voice chat or 1-1 neutral language..

yesterday i was pretty laid up with some pretty bad asthma etc and allergy drugs, and I'm sorry if that rubbed you the wrong way . 

On Thu, Jun 4, 2020 at 4:50 AM Profpatsch <[hidden email]> wrote:

chessai . <[hidden email]> writes:

> Yes, please contact me about these concerns. I am reachable via email at

Great, I’m looking forward to seeing this matter resolved swiftly.

I am a fan of discussing community matters openly, but everybody can
of course decide whether they want to speak up publicly or privately
talk to a trustee.


>
> On Wed, Jun 3, 2020, 12:24 PM David Feuer <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> I urge everyone to direct all further comments on this topic to the
>> current chair of the CLC. There is nothing to be gained from public
>> discussion of a "personnel" matter.
>>
>> On Wed, Jun 3, 2020, 10:03 AM Profpatsch <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> I posted this comment on the thread of
>>>
>>> Since it was deleted and the comment thread locked by Carter,
>>> I am escalating this request to the mailing list, where it cannot be
>>> deleted.
>>>
>>> Profpatsch <[hidden email]> writes:
>>>
>>> > @cartazio Please take even a fleeting look at
>>> notice the amount of discussion and the timeline.
>>> >
>>> > This is the full-time work of a team of half a dozen of experts,
>>> probably breaching one man-year of effort, easily.
>>> > It cannot just be discarded out of hand.
>>> >
>>> > I have been following the discussions (spread over mailinglists, issue
>>> trackers and elsewhere), and I propose you hand over maintainership of
>>> `random` as a base package.
>>>
>>> A parallel issue with relevant discussion can be found at
>>>
>>> I am writing this email from my personal account, because I fear for
>>> the health of the Haskell ecosystem, and I think Carter’s behaviour is
>>> extremely detrimental to it.
>>>
>>> I think a lot of other people feel the same way, so I encourage you to
>>> add your voice publicly.
>>>
>>> ~ Profpatsch
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Libraries mailing list
>>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Libraries mailing list
>>
_______________________________________________
Libraries mailing list
_______________________________________________
Libraries mailing list
_______________________________________________
Libraries mailing list


_______________________________________________
Libraries mailing list
[hidden email]
http://mail.haskell.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/libraries
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: random library: Request for Carter Tazio Schonwald (@cartazio) to step down as maintainer with immediate effect

Fumiaki Kinoshita
First of all, I must apologise for using unnecessarily aggressive words. Also I apologise for making a statement which was interpreted the other way around; I'm really sorry about these.

As a Haskell user who maintains a number of packages (http://hackage.haskell.org/user/FumiakiKinoshita) and tends packages my company is using, I keep track of their dependencies too. When I stumbled upon the moment where the participants of the discussion were insulted and directed to "go away" by Carter, and then the entire issue gets deleted, I didn't condemn it because I thought maybe he's just having a bad day. But when I realised that he's locking an issue again and blocking further contributions, "tyrannous" was the word which came to my mind with rekindled anger, but it was clearly a huge mistake considering what's happening in the part of the civilisation.

> I gotta admit, this makes me disinclined to believe you're acting in good faith. Sometimes shit happens to good people, and someone who can't show a little compassion in these (pardon the cliche) unprecedented times is not someone I want anywhere involved in package management.
Zemyla, I understand your sentiment. I just wanted to protect the opportunities for people to contribute, but my value system is probably broken in many ways. Feel free to block me on GitHub or blame me whenever I'm being problematic.

> This was brought to the attention of CLC and there was a decision made yesterday to replace Carter as maintainer of `random` and `vector` packages. Members of CLC contacted me together with others who participated in this initiative to improve `random`, namely Dominic Stenitz, Leonhard Markert, Alexey Khudyakov and myself, and we were asked to take over the maintainership of `random`. With regards to maintainership of `vector`, it was offered to Alexey Khudyakov and myself as well.

Thank you very much for describing the situation explicitly. Status of the part of the ecosystem being obscure was what has been making me anxious; I'm happy to see that now everyone knows who to get in touch.

Lastly Carter, I acknowledge your substantial contribution to the Haskell ecosystem and I feel for the stress and diseases you go through. From the time when I started writing Haskell many years ago, random and vector were substantial parts of my Haskell experience. I believe that everyone feels safe to talk about purely technical matters and also how to move things forward.

2020年6月5日(金) 21:43 Alexey Kuleshevich <[hidden email]>:
I believe I was the person who initiated this whole thing therefore I feel responsible to make this conversation stop as well.

I totally understand what Carter is going through, my whole family lives in the US and I have many friends living in NY. I also understand that Carter has various issues, which he has shared with everyone over various channels. 

Carter, I really do feel compassionate for you and do personally feel bad that you have to deal with all those problems. I truly hope that you can stay strong and be able to move forward despite them. That being said, I also hope you understand that this does not mean that other members of the community have to suffer because of it. If you can't do a job, it doesn't really matter why, what matters is that you should not stay in a way when someone is willing to step up and do it for you.

Many people came forward recognizing multiple issues with a way Carter maintained community projects over the years. This was brought to the attention of CLC and there was a decision made yesterday to replace Carter as maintainer of `random` and `vector` packages. Members of CLC contacted me together with others who participated in this initiative to improve `random`, namely Dominic Stenitz, Leonhard Markert, Alexey Khudyakov and myself, and we were asked to take over the maintainership of `random`. With regards to maintainership of `vector`, it was offered to Alexey Khudyakov and myself as well.

If I understand correctly Carter is still a member of CLC, and if so he still has the authority and responsibilities that any other member of the committee possess and he is welcome to continue to oversee our work on those packages, but any maintenance related questions please address to myself and other maintainers. I personally prefer to keep as much communication public for public projects, therefore feel free to get in touch me either on newly created gitter: https://gitter.im/haskell/vector or on the corresponding issue tracker for more technical discussions.

Sincerely,
Alexey Kuleshevich 

‐‐‐‐‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐‐‐‐‐
On Friday, June 5, 2020 2:06 PM, Zemyla <[hidden email]> wrote:

So you're saying that the fact that there's basically a civil war and pandemic going on is no excuse to respond to e-mails. And you're calling his behavior "tyrannous" when there are literal tyrants shooting tear gas at civilians.

I gotta admit, this makes me disinclined to believe you're acting in good faith. Sometimes shit happens to good people, and someone who can't show a little compassion in these (pardon the cliche) unprecedented times is not someone I want anywhere involved in package management.

On Fri, Jun 5, 2020, 02:18 Fumiaki Kinoshita <[hidden email]> wrote:
For example video call is not a great method for me because of the following reasons:

* I'm not a good English speaker (especially I sometimes have difficulty with colloquial American English)
* I live in a different timezone
* I prefer open communication 

Although it's totally fine that you have a preference, I have no doubt that core library maintenance should have more acceptance and transparency.

I hesitated talking about this because issues might get locked/edited/deleted, and the participants might get accused of being "thick headed assholes" again like you did in https://github.com/haskell/vector/issues/267#issuecomment-579588727, but I must say:
Frankly, it feels extremely unfair that you ask us to focus on "technical matters" (which excludes maintenance for some reason) only, while you frequently use non-technical reasons (your diseases and the situation in New York) as an excuse. Your asthma doesn't rub me in the wrong way; your tyrannous behaviour does. With all due respect I suggest you not to use CLC privileges to cope with your personal stresses.

2020年6月5日(金) 7:29 Carter Schonwald <[hidden email]>:
and more details to follow in a few days, i'm pretty fried, there was a police shooting this morning 1 block from my aparment plus a whole mess of stuff going on in lowermanhattan where i live most of the time this week thats got me on edge and stressed out of my gourd.

On Thu, Jun 4, 2020 at 6:24 PM Carter Schonwald <[hidden email]> wrote:
i've added a few folks at uploader/contributor bits, and this is generally something all core libraries need. i really prefer discussion via video call or voice chat or 1-1 neutral language..

yesterday i was pretty laid up with some pretty bad asthma etc and allergy drugs, and I'm sorry if that rubbed you the wrong way . 

On Thu, Jun 4, 2020 at 4:50 AM Profpatsch <[hidden email]> wrote:

chessai . <[hidden email]> writes:

> Yes, please contact me about these concerns. I am reachable via email at

Great, I’m looking forward to seeing this matter resolved swiftly.

I am a fan of discussing community matters openly, but everybody can
of course decide whether they want to speak up publicly or privately
talk to a trustee.


>
> On Wed, Jun 3, 2020, 12:24 PM David Feuer <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> I urge everyone to direct all further comments on this topic to the
>> current chair of the CLC. There is nothing to be gained from public
>> discussion of a "personnel" matter.
>>
>> On Wed, Jun 3, 2020, 10:03 AM Profpatsch <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> I posted this comment on the thread of
>>>
>>> Since it was deleted and the comment thread locked by Carter,
>>> I am escalating this request to the mailing list, where it cannot be
>>> deleted.
>>>
>>> Profpatsch <[hidden email]> writes:
>>>
>>> > @cartazio Please take even a fleeting look at
>>> notice the amount of discussion and the timeline.
>>> >
>>> > This is the full-time work of a team of half a dozen of experts,
>>> probably breaching one man-year of effort, easily.
>>> > It cannot just be discarded out of hand.
>>> >
>>> > I have been following the discussions (spread over mailinglists, issue
>>> trackers and elsewhere), and I propose you hand over maintainership of
>>> `random` as a base package.
>>>
>>> A parallel issue with relevant discussion can be found at
>>>
>>> I am writing this email from my personal account, because I fear for
>>> the health of the Haskell ecosystem, and I think Carter’s behaviour is
>>> extremely detrimental to it.
>>>
>>> I think a lot of other people feel the same way, so I encourage you to
>>> add your voice publicly.
>>>
>>> ~ Profpatsch
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Libraries mailing list
>>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Libraries mailing list
>>
_______________________________________________
Libraries mailing list
_______________________________________________
Libraries mailing list
_______________________________________________
Libraries mailing list


_______________________________________________
Libraries mailing list
[hidden email]
http://mail.haskell.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/libraries
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: random library: Request for Carter Tazio Schonwald (@cartazio) to step down as maintainer with immediate effect

Carter Schonwald
Thanks I appreciate that. 

This has been a stressful week for me, and I’ve tried to avoid looking at these threads to avoid crying or otherwise having a little bit of a nervous breakdown. Definitely am crying as I write this. 

I do hope the new maintainers do well to juggle not breaking users while making these libraries ever better.  It’s something I more time than I care to admit trying to see clearly how to navigate. 

On Fri, Jun 5, 2020 at 12:12 PM Fumiaki Kinoshita <[hidden email]> wrote:
First of all, I must apologise for using unnecessarily aggressive words. Also I apologise for making a statement which was interpreted the other way around; I'm really sorry about these.

As a Haskell user who maintains a number of packages (http://hackage.haskell.org/user/FumiakiKinoshita) and tends packages my company is using, I keep track of their dependencies too. When I stumbled upon the moment where the participants of the discussion were insulted and directed to "go away" by Carter, and then the entire issue gets deleted, I didn't condemn it because I thought maybe he's just having a bad day. But when I realised that he's locking an issue again and blocking further contributions, "tyrannous" was the word which came to my mind with rekindled anger, but it was clearly a huge mistake considering what's happening in the part of the civilisation.

> I gotta admit, this makes me disinclined to believe you're acting in good faith. Sometimes shit happens to good people, and someone who can't show a little compassion in these (pardon the cliche) unprecedented times is not someone I want anywhere involved in package management.
Zemyla, I understand your sentiment. I just wanted to protect the opportunities for people to contribute, but my value system is probably broken in many ways. Feel free to block me on GitHub or blame me whenever I'm being problematic.

> This was brought to the attention of CLC and there was a decision made yesterday to replace Carter as maintainer of `random` and `vector` packages. Members of CLC contacted me together with others who participated in this initiative to improve `random`, namely Dominic Stenitz, Leonhard Markert, Alexey Khudyakov and myself, and we were asked to take over the maintainership of `random`. With regards to maintainership of `vector`, it was offered to Alexey Khudyakov and myself as well.

Thank you very much for describing the situation explicitly. Status of the part of the ecosystem being obscure was what has been making me anxious; I'm happy to see that now everyone knows who to get in touch.

Lastly Carter, I acknowledge your substantial contribution to the Haskell ecosystem and I feel for the stress and diseases you go through. From the time when I started writing Haskell many years ago, random and vector were substantial parts of my Haskell experience. I believe that everyone feels safe to talk about purely technical matters and also how to move things forward.

2020年6月5日(金) 21:43 Alexey Kuleshevich <[hidden email]>:
I believe I was the person who initiated this whole thing therefore I feel responsible to make this conversation stop as well.

I totally understand what Carter is going through, my whole family lives in the US and I have many friends living in NY. I also understand that Carter has various issues, which he has shared with everyone over various channels. 

Carter, I really do feel compassionate for you and do personally feel bad that you have to deal with all those problems. I truly hope that you can stay strong and be able to move forward despite them. That being said, I also hope you understand that this does not mean that other members of the community have to suffer because of it. If you can't do a job, it doesn't really matter why, what matters is that you should not stay in a way when someone is willing to step up and do it for you.

Many people came forward recognizing multiple issues with a way Carter maintained community projects over the years. This was brought to the attention of CLC and there was a decision made yesterday to replace Carter as maintainer of `random` and `vector` packages. Members of CLC contacted me together with others who participated in this initiative to improve `random`, namely Dominic Stenitz, Leonhard Markert, Alexey Khudyakov and myself, and we were asked to take over the maintainership of `random`. With regards to maintainership of `vector`, it was offered to Alexey Khudyakov and myself as well.

If I understand correctly Carter is still a member of CLC, and if so he still has the authority and responsibilities that any other member of the committee possess and he is welcome to continue to oversee our work on those packages, but any maintenance related questions please address to myself and other maintainers. I personally prefer to keep as much communication public for public projects, therefore feel free to get in touch me either on newly created gitter: https://gitter.im/haskell/vector or on the corresponding issue tracker for more technical discussions.

Sincerely,
Alexey Kuleshevich 

‐‐‐‐‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐‐‐‐‐
On Friday, June 5, 2020 2:06 PM, Zemyla <[hidden email]> wrote:

So you're saying that the fact that there's basically a civil war and pandemic going on is no excuse to respond to e-mails. And you're calling his behavior "tyrannous" when there are literal tyrants shooting tear gas at civilians.

I gotta admit, this makes me disinclined to believe you're acting in good faith. Sometimes shit happens to good people, and someone who can't show a little compassion in these (pardon the cliche) unprecedented times is not someone I want anywhere involved in package management.

On Fri, Jun 5, 2020, 02:18 Fumiaki Kinoshita <[hidden email]> wrote:
For example video call is not a great method for me because of the following reasons:

* I'm not a good English speaker (especially I sometimes have difficulty with colloquial American English)
* I live in a different timezone
* I prefer open communication 

Although it's totally fine that you have a preference, I have no doubt that core library maintenance should have more acceptance and transparency.

I hesitated talking about this because issues might get locked/edited/deleted, and the participants might get accused of being "thick headed assholes" again like you did in https://github.com/haskell/vector/issues/267#issuecomment-579588727, but I must say:
Frankly, it feels extremely unfair that you ask us to focus on "technical matters" (which excludes maintenance for some reason) only, while you frequently use non-technical reasons (your diseases and the situation in New York) as an excuse. Your asthma doesn't rub me in the wrong way; your tyrannous behaviour does. With all due respect I suggest you not to use CLC privileges to cope with your personal stresses.

2020年6月5日(金) 7:29 Carter Schonwald <[hidden email]>:
and more details to follow in a few days, i'm pretty fried, there was a police shooting this morning 1 block from my aparment plus a whole mess of stuff going on in lowermanhattan where i live most of the time this week thats got me on edge and stressed out of my gourd.

On Thu, Jun 4, 2020 at 6:24 PM Carter Schonwald <[hidden email]> wrote:
i've added a few folks at uploader/contributor bits, and this is generally something all core libraries need. i really prefer discussion via video call or voice chat or 1-1 neutral language..

yesterday i was pretty laid up with some pretty bad asthma etc and allergy drugs, and I'm sorry if that rubbed you the wrong way . 

On Thu, Jun 4, 2020 at 4:50 AM Profpatsch <[hidden email]> wrote:

chessai . <[hidden email]> writes:

> Yes, please contact me about these concerns. I am reachable via email at

Great, I’m looking forward to seeing this matter resolved swiftly.

I am a fan of discussing community matters openly, but everybody can
of course decide whether they want to speak up publicly or privately
talk to a trustee.


>
> On Wed, Jun 3, 2020, 12:24 PM David Feuer <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> I urge everyone to direct all further comments on this topic to the
>> current chair of the CLC. There is nothing to be gained from public
>> discussion of a "personnel" matter.
>>
>> On Wed, Jun 3, 2020, 10:03 AM Profpatsch <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> I posted this comment on the thread of
>>>
>>> Since it was deleted and the comment thread locked by Carter,
>>> I am escalating this request to the mailing list, where it cannot be
>>> deleted.
>>>
>>> Profpatsch <[hidden email]> writes:
>>>
>>> > @cartazio Please take even a fleeting look at
>>> notice the amount of discussion and the timeline.
>>> >
>>> > This is the full-time work of a team of half a dozen of experts,
>>> probably breaching one man-year of effort, easily.
>>> > It cannot just be discarded out of hand.
>>> >
>>> > I have been following the discussions (spread over mailinglists, issue
>>> trackers and elsewhere), and I propose you hand over maintainership of
>>> `random` as a base package.
>>>
>>> A parallel issue with relevant discussion can be found at
>>>
>>> I am writing this email from my personal account, because I fear for
>>> the health of the Haskell ecosystem, and I think Carter’s behaviour is
>>> extremely detrimental to it.
>>>
>>> I think a lot of other people feel the same way, so I encourage you to
>>> add your voice publicly.
>>>
>>> ~ Profpatsch
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Libraries mailing list
>>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Libraries mailing list
>>
_______________________________________________
Libraries mailing list
_______________________________________________
Libraries mailing list
_______________________________________________
Libraries mailing list

_______________________________________________
Libraries mailing list
[hidden email]
http://mail.haskell.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/libraries

_______________________________________________
Libraries mailing list
[hidden email]
http://mail.haskell.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/libraries